Eversheds/NatWest Joint Bank Account Overdraft Court Claim - Advice Please

[AndyOrch]

3 figures involved here Radmm, Summons amount = ? DN and Recall O/D amount =? Statement of accounts ( O/D and P/L) =?

 

All should be the same.

 

Andy

[radmm0]

They're all different. The amounts on the latest DNs are different to the original PoC amounts. However, I don't know where and for what date the Statement of Account should be taken? Is this the amount shown on the final Bank Statement I received for the O/D and the P/L by the bank? If so, then they're different to the above amounts aswell. Hope this makes it clearer?

One other question, these latest DNs mention closing the accounts. However, this was already done PRIOR to taking me to court, so can they close accounts that were already closed and doesn't this fact have an affect on the case too?! Can a bank actually raise DNs on 'closed accounts'?

Rgds.

radmm0

[radmm0]

Any advice on the above post and below info?

 

I have been reading conflicting posts regarding whether or not a creditor can re-issue a DN post termination of an account/CA. Can they re-issue. Can they do what they're attempting here?

 

I responded to the DNs informing them that we're seeking professional advice and will be in touch in due course. But, have now received the TNs giving us 7 days to respond. Unfortunately these were sent to our OLD address (even though the TNs were sent 2 days AFTER they received our replies to the DNs with notification of our changed address). Time is getting very tight and we need to respond to their TN by Wednesday this week. Any replies would be very much appreciated.

Rgds.

radmm0

[BankFodder]

Where are you on this claim?

 

I have scanned the thread.

 

I see that they have used a joint current account to pay a credit card debt in your name only. Which is more expensive? The credit card or the overdraft?

 

Also, there are rules about using about using joint funds to pay a single person's debt. Have you looked at the post made by Undercoverelsa? You can see the FOS decision here - http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/40/40_setoff.htm

 

Would you consider there to have been any unfair treatment? If so can you tell us how you see it, please.

 

There would be no problem introducing BCOBS or COBS arguments even at this late stage if you thought that they were applicable.

 

If you were able to show unfair treatment, that could be used to bring an unfair relationship challenge under s.140A CCA

[radmm0]

Hi BF

 

Thanks for your post. I have answered as best I can most of your queries below.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

 

Where are you on this claim? All stopped when CPR31.14 request sent to their solicitors, as nothing ever came back apart from two letters from the sols stating that there would be no further action until they hear from their client. The court claims are either stayed or 'hanging in the air' awaiting direction. However, we then received a new set of DNs & Termination Notice nearly 4 months AFTER the 'no further action' letter from their sols. I have since sent the bank an 'Account in Dispute' notification and started a Formal Complaint to the Customer Relations dept, to which we have had no replies other than an acknowledgement of receipt from their CMS dept about the accounts in dispute. They have at the same time started sending letters and commenced phone harassment from their associates Triton to my wife ONLY. There has now been a letter from their internal sols Green & Co, again addressed to my wife. All correspondence is being sent to our OLD address, even though we have notified the original solicitors of our new one. Don't know what to do next, as they don't seem to be responding to any of our letters/complaints?! They're leaving me no option but to take them to FOS/FSA/OFT and also to look at BCOBS for unfair treatment?!

 

I have scanned the thread.

 

I see that they have used a joint current account to pay a credit card debt in your name only. Which is more expensive? The credit card or the overdraft? This isn't a 'credit card', but a 'charge card', like an Amex, that has to be FULLY cleared every month. It is directly linked to the bank account and one can not have a Private Banking facility without it. There are 3 issues with all payments to the card from the 'joint' bank account; one is that they were not able to produce a signed agreement for the charge card when I sent them a CCA request at the same time as the CPR31.14 request for the court case (therefore any outstanding balance was not payable/enforcable and should not have been transferred to the bank account), two is the fact that they should not have paid the balance on the card from the 'joint' account (as per Undercoverelsa's post) and three they should not have paid the balance on the card when by doing so it caused the bank account to go over the overdraft limit.

 

Also, there are rules about using about using joint funds to pay a single person's debt. Have you looked at the post made by Undercoverelsa? You can see the FOS decision here - http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/40/40_setoff.htm. Yes I have read and understand most of it.

 

Would you consider there to have been any unfair treatment? If so can you tell us how you see it, please. I Have had a bank account with them for nearly 30 years. The unfair treatment started in July/August 2010, as neither the Private Banking guys (who I had known for nearly 12 years) nor the Customer Relations were prepared to accept putting in place a consolidation loan to cover the whole amount with a monthly payment of £200 - £250 (as this is the monthly amount I was offering them at the time anyway, but they refused all such attempts at resolving the problem and passed the account to their CMS dept). These guys then passed it again internally to Triton who got extremely vicious and aggressive in a very short time, as they would not accpet anything less than £400 per month! Accounts were then terminated and court claim commenced. I believe their agressive and intransigent approach has caused my wife & I untold stress and added unnecessary additional costs to the account due to the court case. We have spent a lot of time dealing with this case, which should never have been brought to the courts if they had treated us fairly and accepted a negotiated way of moving forward, instead of their sols doing so during a court case!

 

There would be no problem introducing BCOBS or COBS arguments even at this late stage if you thought that they were applicable. I'll be spending a bit of time getting to know BCOBS, but from what you have read and the above info would it be possible/worth it to include them?

 

If you were able to show unfair treatment, that could be used to bring an unfair relationship challenge under s.140A CCA. Yes, have been looking at a thread on this recently and looks very likely that I could use the same CCA section.

.

[BankFodder]

Is it correct that the charge card is associated with a different account?

 

Also you haven't answered the question as to which is the most expensive solution for you

[radmm0]

Is it correct that the charge card is associated with a different account? No, it is linked directly with the disputed current account (overdraft). The charge card can not exist on its own, although it is issued by MasterCard.

 

Also you haven't answered the question as to which is the most expensive solution for you. There is no interest payable on the charge card, as it has to be cleared/paid on a monthly basis.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

[BankFodder]

Well I don't understand.

 

I had gathered that there were two accounts - one joint and one single and that they had used the joint account to pay the single - but now I understand that the joint account has a charge card associated with it and the balance on it has been paid off by increasing the overdraft on the feeder account.????

[radmm0]

Well I don't understand.

 

I had gathered that there were two accounts - one joint and one single and that they had used the joint account to pay the single - but now I understand that the joint account has a charge card associated with it and the balance on it has been paid off by increasing the overdraft on the feeder account.????

 

Hi BF

 

Sorry for causing the misunderstanding. The bank broke their own agreed overdraft limit by a very long way by paying the charge card balance from the 'joint' account.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

[BankFodder]

Yes, but the point is that the charge card is associated with the account which was used to pay into it?? Please do answer yes or no.

Ta

[radmm0]

Yes. Really sorry for the confusion.

[BankFodder]

Thanks.

 

OK, there is one account which is a joint account and the account has a charge card which happens to be only in the name of one of the joint parties. The charge card has been used correctly for some time with the balance being paid off from the joint account regularly every month.

 

There has been no objection to this until the joint account was used to pay off a large debit on the card which put the joint account into overdraft.

Is that correct?

 

You say that there is no interest payable on the charge card because it has to be repaid in full each month. OK. But there has to be something in the T&Cs which provides for what happens in the event it isn't repaid.

[radmm0]

Hi BF

 

Hope the answers below will clarify some of the remaining confusion.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

 

Thanks.

 

OK, there is one account which is a joint account and the account has a charge card which happens to be only in the name of one of the joint parties. The charge card has been used correctly for some time with the balance being paid off from the joint account regularly every month. Correct, except that although I was regarded as the 'Main' account holder and ALL statements were addressed to me personally, my wife did possess a Charge Card in her name.

 

There has been no objection to this until the joint account was used to pay off a large debit on the card which put the joint account into overdraft.

Is that correct? We didn't actually 'object' as such, as I knew the full balance due on the charge card could not be met for that month since the bank account was already at close to its overdraft limit. That's why I requested the Private Banking, Lending team and Customer Relations to consider providing us with a consolidation loan. But they refused and have caused us grief ever since.

 

You say that there is no interest payable on the charge card because it has to be repaid in full each month. OK. But there has to be something in the T&Cs which provides for what happens in the event it isn't repaid. The T&C currently states 14.95%.

[BankFodder]

Ok, I'm start to get a feel of it.

 

Firstly it seems to me that they haven't exercised a right of set off here.

 

It is one account - joint. Two charge cards both feeding off the same account. Each charge card is in the name of the holder but I think that is completely normal. I don't think that the cards on a joint account each normally have the name of MR & Mrs X on them. Not the ones I have see, anyway.

So I think that it is quite natural to say that each charge card incurs debts on behalf of the joint account. When the account had enough credit in it to support the repayments on each charge card, this raised no objections. I'm afraid that I don't think that it is unfair to consider that the chargecard debts of one joint party are shared by the other joint party. I'm sure that this is the way that it was always intended.

 

Using repaying the charge card from an account where there is no overdraft facility is a bit more interesting - but you still haven't told me which is more expensive - an unarranged overdraft or the charge card. You have finally agreed that their is an interest figure identified in the charge card T&Cs

 

In a way to say that the account has no overdraft facility is not completely correct. It has an overdraft facility in the charge cards and it is 0% so long as it is repaid within a month.

 

The refusal by the bank to discuss your difficulties is a better bet for a claim of unfairness. They are required to do this by BCOBS.

However your case is not as good as it might have been if they had broken the set off rules - which I don't think that they have.

 

Let us know about the cost of an unarranged OD please.

 

Why wasn't there an application to strike out during the 4 month lull in the claim?

 

Of course you haven't talked about your assets. Do you own a property and what is the equity. I think that unfair treatment of you must include an assessment of your circumstances to see whether you have the means to pay off the entire debt - or larger instalments without a lot of difficulty

[BankFodder]

One thing which occurs to me is that if there is a separate rate of interest which is identified for the charge card and it is different to the overdraft rate then I think that there is a reasonable argument for saying that they should have left the debt on the charge card if it was the cheaper option for you. I think that there is a case for saying that it is unfair for them simply to shift the debt to the most expensive option. By having a rate specifically for the charge card, they have envisaged a situation where the card balance is not repaid but the balance has been left on the card and not set-off against the overdraft.

I think that argument works reasonably well.

 

However, where this all gets you, I'm not too sure so far.

[radmm0]

Please see highlighted parts for details. Thanks a lot BF.

Rgds.

radmm0

 

Ok, I'm start to get a feel of it.

 

Firstly it seems to me that they haven't exercised a right of set off here.

 

It is one account - joint. Two charge cards both feeding off the same account. Each charge card is in the name of the holder but I think that is completely normal. I don't think that the cards on a joint account each normally have the name of MR & Mrs X on them. Not the ones I have see, anyway.

So I think that it is quite natural to say that each charge card incurs debts on behalf of the joint account. When the account had enough credit in it to support the repayments on each charge card, this raised no objections. I'm afraid that I don't think that it is unfair to consider that the chargecard debts of one joint party are shared by the other joint party. I'm sure that this is the way that it was always intended.

 

Using repaying the charge card from an account where there is no overdraft facility (there was a hefty overdraft facility available on the personal 'joint' account, which was close to its limit when they insisted on adding the charge card balance to the overdraft, thus pushing it majorly over the limit) is a bit more interesting - but you still haven't told me which is more expensive - an unarranged overdraft or the charge card (the unarranged rate is approximately twice the charge card rate). You have finally agreed that their is an interest figure identified in the charge card T&Cs

 

In a way to say that the account has no overdraft facility is not completely correct. It has an overdraft facility in the charge cards and it is 0% so long as it is repaid within a month.

 

The refusal by the bank to discuss your difficulties is a better bet for a claim of unfairness. They are required to do this by BCOBS.

However your case is not as good as it might have been if they had broken the set off rules - which I don't think that they have.

 

Let us know about the cost of an unarranged OD please. Double the charge card rate.

 

Why wasn't there an application to strike out during the 4 month lull in the claim? Is it too late to do it now?

 

Of course you haven't talked about your assets. Do you own a property and what is the equity. I think that unfair treatment of you must include an assessment of your circumstances to see whether you have the means to pay off the entire debt - or larger instalments without a lot of difficulty. Please refer the first post for more details and note that we have lost our home and have no assets to speak of.

[radmm0]

One thing which occurs to me is that if there is a separate rate of interest which is identified for the charge card and it is different to the overdraft rate then I think that there is a reasonable argument for saying that they should have left the debt on the charge card if it was the cheaper option for you. I think that there is a case for saying that it is unfair for them simply to shift the debt to the most expensive option. By having a rate specifically for the charge card, they have envisaged a situation where the card balance is not repaid but the balance has been left on the card and not set-off against the overdraft.

I think that argument works reasonably well.

 

However, where this all gets you, I'm not too sure so far.

 

Hi BF

Please note that I mentioned the use of BCOBS within another thread (by Texanbar http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?176136-Natwest-taking-me-to-court-**-CLAIMS-STRUCK-OUT**&highlight=green+co), which then resulted in yourself replying to my own thread. This is fine, but, please note that our case is near enough exactly the same as Texanbar's. So, even if the BCOBS isn't ideal, I'm hoping there are many tactics/defence examples used within the Texanbar thread that we could adopt/use?

 

At the moment my wife and I are playing letter ping pong with them, although it seems to be mainly us that is doing the 'pinging' without much 'ponging' from them! My intention is to apply for Strike Outs of the claims and complain to FOS/FSA/OFT about their recent behaviour.

 

It has never been my intention not to pay any unsecured debt, but I'm really angry at the way they have behaved from day one, even though I have banked with them for nearly 30 years AND held 2 separate business accounts with them in the past too!

 

I have had to go on medication since these guys started on us last year and am currently without work - the prospects aren't good either. My wife is bringing in the bacon at the moment and we're trying to hold everything together for our small young family.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

[robcag]

Hi radmm0

 

I just came across your thread whilst reading another, but the thread seems to have gone quiet.

 

It would be interesting to hear if things have turned out well for you or if you any updates on your situation.

 

Cheers

Rob

[radmm0]

 

Hi Rob

Thanks for your query. I have to first congratulate you on your major success with NatWest. I was going to contact you soon to ask a few questions about your case.

 

I have been waiting to hear from NatWest regarding my complaints before updating this thread. They have been taking their time in replying with any sort of answer, but only last week wrote to fob me off with a 'compensation' cheque!! Of course, I won't be replying until I have spoken to the experts first!

 

I am really glad your case has come to a successful end, as I believe there are a number of us on CAG that have very similar cases to yours and Texanbar. Unfortunately their thread just went dead after their final court hearing, so don't really know what happened there, but yours will definitely give many of us the confidence and know-how to fight and win our cases too. Hopefully!

 

Rgds.

radmm0