Eversheds/NatWest Joint Bank Account Overdraft Court Claim - Advice Please

[radmm0]

I wonder if you could help with the following or pass it to someone that can? Thanks a lot.

 

I have run my own IT business for nearly 8 years and unfortunately due to the financial shock of the last 2.5 years it has struggled to make ends meet for myself and the family. I have recently transferred the lease of the premises to a new person and will be free of all business commitments very soon. We have had all sorts of mortgage and personal unsecured debt problems in the past 2 years, but I managed to agree terms with all the unsecured creditors/DCAs. We have had family and friends help us with the mortgage payments until a few months ago when our monthly payments dropped by more than 50% (as we were on a really bad fixed rate until this February with a huge Redemption Penalty of nearly £25k), so we have managed to pay it ourselves again, since my poor wife is back in full time work and I'm going to be a house-husband for a while until I get myself a job in IT again.

 

I have had a personal bank account with NatWest since 1981 in MY name, which unfortunately became a 'Joint' account in our married name in 1995 in order to deposit a few cheques as wedding presents made to us in our married name! The account then became Advantage Gold, then Advantage Premier and finally Private Banking. All along there has been a Gold MasterCard ChargeCard with me as the Primary Account holder and ALL statements sent to our home address in MY name only (where the balance HAS to be cleared on a monthly basis - just like an Amex chargecard) linked to this account (actually part of the Terms & Conditions of having the various account types mentioned, the latest being Private Banking). The other very important condition listed in the current T&Cs for this type of account is that the account holder(s) must have an annual salary of at least £100k which is paid into the account or £50k in savings with NatWest. I haven't had this sort of money since I left my IT contracting job in 2003 to start my business. My wife has NEVER used the bank account (no funds or salries deposited or withdrawn in her married or maiden name), as she has always had her own HSBC account in her maiden name since the age of 17.

 

I used the MasterCard ChargeCard balance availability for cash flow reasons to juggle our monthly financial problems, but got unstuck in August 2010 after nearly 20 years of using the card without ANY problems. I wasn't able to clear the monthly balance (nearly £10k) on time. I tried to get the Private Banking team to ask MasterCard for more time to clear the balance, but neither party wanted to listen or help. What has amazed me is that they're behaving as if I'm a 'criminal' or effectively accusing me of never intending to re-pay my debt to them, even after nearly 30 years of having an account with them and all the interest and charges already paid to them! They then cleared the outstanding balance, which is really MY debt and in MY name as the Primary Card Holder on the MasterCard account, by adding it to the 'joint' bank account, thus increasing the Overdraft substantially overnight. NatWest then started complaining about the level of the Overdraft and passed my account internally to their Risk team who in turn passed it onto their Collections dept. All along I was 'jointly' offering to pay a monthly amount until my financial situation improved, but NONE of the NatWest brigade wanted to know. They then passed my file to Triton and my wife's to Evershed's. Both of us have tried every effort to agree some sort of payment arrangement with these outfits, like the ones I have in place with my other creditors/DCAs, but to no avail (considering that one of my big creditors that has agreed to a small monthly payment is actually NatWest's parent - RBS!!). Triton finally passed my file to Evershed's too, who have shown no mediation skills either!

 

My wife and I have been issued separate Court Claims for the total Overdraft amount by Eversheds/NatWest Bank (more than £25K) for our 'joint' bank account. My wife has sent the Acknowledgment of Service back giving her case another 14 days from tomorrow and I'll be doing the same shortly.

 

I have considerable personal unsecured debt that has been paid in monthly installments for nearly 2 years by agreeing with DCAs and original Creditors - various credit cards and loans totaling over £120k. All this debt is in my name, which I may put into an IVA.

 

The only debt in 'joint' names is the Bank Overdraft, which consists of the original Overdraft (more than £12k) and the NatWest Private Banking MaterCard ChargeCard balance (more than £10k), which has been added to the Overdraft.

 

Can anyone suggest if we have any legs to stand on regarding my wife using the T&C of the account to 'wriggle' out of having anything to do with this account, as she's never earned £100k or paid ANY salaries into this 'joint' account (two of the most important conditions of having this account)? Can we use the fact that the ChargeCard account is in my name and has nothing to do with my wife, so even if she has a 'joint' debt, it is only just over £12k of the Overdraft only? Do NatWest have to physically possess and be able to produce the original Joint Account Mandate (signed by us both) to prove my wife's liability?

 

Thanks again for your time and any help you can provide. Please ask away if you need to know anymore than I've given above.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

[MARTIN3030]

Will move to legal forum

[citizenB]

Thank Martin

 

radmm0, can you please let us know what the date of issue is on the claim form - top right hand corner under the claim number.

[citizenB]

We also need to know exactly what the claimant is claiming for..

[radmm0]

We also need to know exactly what the claimant is claiming for..

 

Thanks again for your quick replies.

 

My wife's claim was issued on 08/06/11 with the following PoC:

'Claimant: NatWest. The claimant's claim is for the total sum £nnnnn being the amount due on account ref: i) nnnnnnnn (£nnnnn); agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. A Consumer Default Notice has been served by post on the Defendant in relation to the account. The Defendant has not complied with the Notice. The Claimant claims interest at the contractual rate stipulated in the credit agreement.'

 

My claim was issued on 21/06/11 with the following PoC:

'Claimant: NatWest. The claimant's claim is for the total sum £nnnnn being the amount due on account ref: i) nnnnnnnn (£nnnnn); ii) nnnnnnnn (£nnnn); agreements regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. A Consumer Default Notice has been served by post on the Defendant in relation to each of the accounts. The Defendant has not complied with the Notices. The Claimant claims interest at the contractual rate stipulated in the credit agreements.'

 

I had forgotten to further split my debt with the bank as the Overdraft and a Loan, which is in MY name only.

 

Hope this helps?

Rgds.

radmm0

[citizenB]

Timelines

 

Your wife :

 

Issue date 8 June + 5 days for service = 13th June + 14 days to acknowledge service 27th June (I understand your wife has AoS) + 14 days to submit defence = 11th July (assuming she is intending to defend)

 

You :

 

Issue date 21st June + 5 days for service = 26th June + 14 days to acknowledge service = 10th July + 14 days to submit defence = 24th July (assuming you intend to defend)

 

The dates 10th and 24th July are Sundays, so you will need to AoS and submit defence by the Friday prior.

 

Seems quite odd they have left 2 weeks in between the issuing of the two claims ?

[42man]

I think you should first of all have a read of this.....they cannot claim contractual interest either - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage - If it was me in your position I would have to make the decision of whehter I would defend all, defend part or admit all....I would certainly want to see all the relevant paperwork first..

[radmm0]

Thanks a lot 42man. I have been looking at a lot of threads prior to posting my own one and have seen a lot of suggestions and outcome of various cases. I'll read the link again and make a decision, however, can you let me know what relevant paperwork would be helpful for more advice from yourself or other CAG members? as our problem is that we just don't know which option to go for either!

I'll do an extra info post later this morning, as I believe there are other factors in play here that need to be mentioned or may PM you, as the info will make it rather obvious who we are to any spies on the site!

Rgds.

radmm0

[42man]

Once you have read through some of the threads you will feel a little more empowered and knowledgable on the subject (but read through more recent threads too as case law and legislation obviously does change). If you intend to defend then you have got to face the fact that as well as the possibility of winning, there is also the chance you may lose, and face an unpredictable judge (who vary wildly) and an opposing sol/barrister, and a costs bill too. Only you can make a decision on the way you go forward....

[Abby25]

Hi Ram .. sorry for the delay in getting to you, I've only just spotted your request for me to have a look at your thread. But here I am ... I hope I can help !!

 

I have scanned over your initial post (and forgive me if you have covered this & I have missed it), but have you checked that your Mastercard T&Cs actually disclose that the bank may transfer any credit card balance held, to an overdraft facility ? If it does, what are the cirumstances upon which they claim they can take this action ?

 

Abby x

 

PS - is there any chance one of the mods can sort out my text - it takes me ages having to keep going back & working out how to put in paragraph spaces ... its is annoying !!!! (already reported but no one has come back to me - its putting me off posting !)

[citizenB]

abby, I have found double spacing in respect of setting paragraphs seems to work. However, I will try and find out if there is a more practical way of resolving that issue for you.

[Abby25]

Hi CB and thanks .... the prob is when I type and do the normal para spacing - when I post it up and read it back, the whole typeset has merged, its a pain for anyone to read that way, so I have been gong back in and putting

in.Right I have just done the para by double space between this and the above .. lets see if it works when I submit post ... here goes fingers crossed !!!Abby x

[Abby25]

Nope CB ... double space hasn't worked ... this just happend to me all of a sudden, I also can't add any smiley faces too (and I miss them !!)

[citizenB]

Nope CB ... double space hasn't worked ... this just happend to me all of a sudden, I also can't add any smiley faces too (and I miss them !!)

 

Oh noooooooo, that is disastrous if you cant add smilies. Are you using the quick reply or advanced reply button ?

 

Using the quick reply feature, I find that smilies need to be typed in physically as ... colon lol colon, for example, for the laughing smiley . But you get to see the whole range of them if you use the "Go advanced" button.

 

See if that helps

[radmm0]

Hi Ram .. sorry for the delay in getting to you, I've only just spotted your request for me to have a look at your thread. But here I am ... I hope I can help !!

 

I have scanned over your initial post (and forgive me if you have covered this & I have missed it), but have you checked that your Mastercard T&Cs actually disclose that the bank may transfer any credit card balance held, to an overdraft facility ? If it does, what are the cirumstances upon which they claim they can take this action ?

 

Abby x

 

Hi Abby

 

Thanks for your reply and question. I'll check and get back to you re the MasterCard ChargeCard.

 

In the meantime, a lot has happened since my original post. I have sent a CPR 31.14 request for both the OD and MasterCard ChargeCard from Eversheds. They have sent a brief reply explaining that they have sent my request to their client and will get back to me as soon as possible. They also state that 'they will not take any further action whilst they are awaiting a reply from their client'. Does this mean they would inform the court to stop the whole process until further notice or do we have to let the court know?

 

Also, the case was transferred from Cardiff to London after we sent the Ack of Service to Cardiff. We are now awaiting new directions from the London judge, which I have been told by the London court means 'awaiting a new date for the hearing'.

 

Will the claimants stop the case if they can't get the relevant documents to back their POC?

 

Thanks again for your time.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

[radmm0]

It is now more than 2 months since my wife and I sent a CPR request to the claimant after receiving two separate court claims for our joint bank account. We still haven't heard anything, only a SAR-type response showing the bank account transactions, which has absolutely nothing to do with the POC and our CPR request! I also CCA'ed the NatWest ChargeCard, which came back as no CCA agreement exists, but the balance is obviously zero, since it was paid by the joint bank account! I'll be looking into the legality of the bank paying them separately.

We have kept the courts informed of our situation and whereabouts. I have paid a very small amount every month to the bank and recently to their solicitors. Should I continue with this token payment or not?

What should we be doing regarding the court claims now? Use a court 'Nxxx' form for each case or ask claimant to cancel the cases?

Thanks everyone at CAG, as none of this would have been possible without you guys.

Rgds.

radmm0

[citizenB]

Hmm, you might want to send a private message to andyorch who would likely be able to advise you on this.

 

Have you checked with Northampton to ensure that the case is actually stayed, pending further notice from Eversheds ? I think it is actually the defendant's duty according to CPR to notify the court of any extension, but it would seem that yours has been stayed for a good time at 2 months !

[radmm0]

Thanks CB. I'll PM andyorch shortly.

The claims were not lodged at Northampton, but a far away court, which were then transferred to two separate local courts after we sent the AoS back to the original court. I have been in touch with the original court regarding us awaiting the claimant's response to our request for information. We have had letters from the local courts confirming that the claims have been transferred, but no other information since. So, is it safe to assume that the cases are 'suspended' pending the claimant's instructions? I say this, as they stated in their letter to us that 'they will not continue with their action while they are waiting for their client's response'.

As far as I understand the account is now in 'dispute', so should I carry on making the token payments or not bother anymore, as making them effectively accepts liability for the debt?

Rgds.

radmm0

[citizenB]

Hmm, I think the fact that you are continuing to make token payments will almost certainly stand you in good stead with the court. As you have a letter from them advising that they will not proceed until they can obtain the paperwork I think that will be satisfactory. I just dont trust Eversheds

[citizenB]

I find it rather strange their POCs were so brief bearing in mind they actually issued them through a court and not the Bulk processing centre.

 

What exactly is a charge card, is it one that has to be totally cleared monthly ?

[radmm0]

Is Northampton the only Bulk centre?

 

Yes, it is one that has to be cleared on a monthly basis and is only issued to customers with a certain type of bank account and is actually one of the conditions of having that type of account.

 

I certainly think they'll come back with something soon, as it is rather a lot of money they're after. I'll be surprised if they just go away. However, I can't think with what or how they may potentially come back to haunt us!

[AndyOrch]

Hi radmm

 

Responding to your PM.Ok as advised by CB check the status of the claim with the Court in question.If it is stayed then we can look at your options re Applications.

 

Andy

[radmm0]

Hi andyorch

 

Sorry for the delay in my reply to your request, but have had a nightmare getting through to the courts and a getting clear answer from them! Apparently nothing has happened to either claim and they are both 'in the air'. They suggested asking and paying (£80 per claim) for a Strike Out/Off with form N244, is that right?

 

Your help is very much appreciated.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

[AndyOrch]

In the air meaning stayed.Its your choice to make application for strike out but you will need to state a reason as to your request

and its always a gamble as to whether it will happen with a £80 price tag.

 

Andy

[radmm0]

Thanks for your quick reply. The lady at the court suggested today that the claim could 'at any time' get a judgement 'by default'. Is this the case?

What does 'stayed' actually mean and does it occur 'automatically' or does the defendant have to 'request' it? In other words, can we just leave everything as it is without rocking the boat?

Thanks again.

Rgds.

radmm0