Sacked on the spot without warning

[gazhodge1981]

Funny you should say that Concillator,

 

I am due this week to request documents that i need off them as well as reply to the ET by Thursday which i will fax them again my response to there claim of 11 months.

Lot of interesting points this morning i will ring the tax office first thing Monday morning to find out the information. (taxmen only chase you when you owe them)

As for documents i need to request of them, should i request a contract of employment??? i know people who have been there 30 years and never seen one so i might be waiting a while to get it. (is there a time limit they have to supply these documents)???

[Gbarbm]

Thanks for the backhanded compliments guys! Anyway I don't care Wales won..... Semi finals here we come wooyay!

Seriously, all that the tribunal has to go on is evidence....the more evidence you have which throws the employers credibility into question the better.

Go get those suckers!

[Gbarbm]

Regarding your contract, if there is no proper contract, there must be as a minimum written particulars of engagement otherwise how can the employer prove mutuality of obligation (ie you work for me and I pay you)

make a written request (send by recorded delivery) for the contract/written agreement of particulars of employment and give them 10 to 14 days to respond.

DO NOT ring them

If they ring you, tell them you are unable to discuss matters over the phone and they must put their response in writing.

[gazhodge1981]

So far I have:-

Contract of employment,

Job Description,

Pay slips, - only ever given about 4 or 5 in 12 months.

P11d,

Training records,

Disciplinary records,

Minutes from Disciplinary Meetings (if they produce them having never had one)

Performance records including half deals,

 

Please feel free to add to this list

[CONCILLIATOR]

Good list-- plenty there to keep them busy. They are obliged to provide what you ask for as evidence in time for the hearing. Much of their case depends on the existence of those documents as well. If they fail to produce them then you can ask at the hearing why not and what are they basing their evidence on.

 

PS. Congratulations Wales

[Gbarbm]

Gaz,

Just a thought ( I do have them from time to time) I note on your list you have form P11D;

Make sure you request form P11D (expenses and benefits) in case the sly dogs try and palm you off with a P11 deduction working sheet which is a different thing altogether.

Also when you ask for the contract also state or written particulars of employment .

Be interesting to see what they come up with on that one!

Son is getting a taxi home later which means I can have a nice lager now to celebrate the Welsh winners with the odd shaped balls ;-)

All the best Gaz, keep us updated and give me another reason to celebrate.

[becky2585]

Hi Gaz

 

Just a point I've noticed - if you weren't provided with a contract of employment and you know that one never existed, its probably pointless writing to them to ask that it be disclosed!

[postggj]

a contract oemployment is a legal requirement

 

be it on paper or implied through custom and practice

[becky2585]

a contract oemployment is a legal requirement

 

be it on paper or implied through custom and practice

 

But that doesn't alter the fact that in this case, the contract never existed!

[Gbarbm]

Hi,

Becky I note what you say and you're right there probably isn't one, but there should be (see extract below from ACAS website)

If the employer cannot produce anything then that can only be a good thing as not only does it show their behaviors when it comes to dealing with things it also means they cannot rely on a contract to support anything they have done!

 

Who has an employment

contract?

All employees have a contract of

employment. A contract exists as

soon as an employee accepts an

employer’s terms and conditions of

employment.

Does the contract need to be

in writing?

Except for apprenticeships,

employees’ contracts need not be in

writing. However, the law requires

employers to provide most

employees with a written statement

of the main terms and conditions of

employment (see section on Written

statements, p89).

Terms of a contract of

employment

The terms of a contract of

employment can be divided into four

main categories:

• express terms – are those spelled

out either in writing or by oral

agreement

• implied terms – are those not

spelled out, for instance, those

that are too obvious to mention or

are the custom and practice of the

business or industry. It is a

question of law whether or not a

term is implied in a contract and

there are no hard and fast rules

• incorporated terms – are those

incorporated into individual

contracts from other documents

such as collective agreements with

trade unions and company

handbooks

• statutory terms – are those

imposed by law (for example the

right not to be discriminated

against on grounds of age, race,

sex, disability, gender identity,

religion or belief or sexual

orientation). Agreements to

contract out of statutory terms are

void under the law.

[gazhodge1981]

As far as im aware no one has ever been given a contract but the owner does have a few in a box in his office from the early 90's i was told but i dont know how true it is.

 

The list i have for them:-

Contract of employment

Job Description

Pay slips

P11d - expenses and benefits

Training records

Disciplinary records

Minutes from Disciplinary Meetings

disciplinary procedure

Performance records including half deals

Internet performance – before and after new website

[becky2585]

But if Gaz requests it having argued that he DOESN'T have one, would that not undermine his credibility?

 

It would also probably deprive him of the right to bring a claim for failing to provide written particulars, if it is seen that by him requesting the disclosure of his "contract", that he is implying that one existed in the first place, having initially denied that he had been provided with one...

 

Granted its only a claim for up to four weeks pay and it would have to be on the back of another successful claim, so its probably an irrelevance anyway!

[Gbarbm]

Gaz, Becky,

 

That's why I advised asking for the contract OR written particulars of engagement or employment.

At least if you ask for those then there is no get out clause for them if they haven't got anything......but you should ask for it; they will then have to state that they don't have anything; this is more likely to undermine them rather than you.

[gazhodge1981]

Gaz, Becky,

 

That's why I advised asking for the contract OR written particulars of engagement or employment.

At least if you ask for those then there is no get out clause for them if they haven't got anything......but you should ask for it; they will then have to state that they don't have anything; this is more likely to undermine them rather than you.

 

Thats what i would think Gbarbm,

 

If i have to request one doesnt that show i never had one and if they cant provide one, even better

[becky2585]

This is a pretty interesting thread, it will be interesting to see how it pans out!

[gazhodge1981]

the next big step is the reply to the ET regarding there 11 months claim. I am still looking through the thread as to the best way to respond.

Once over that this case should be straight forward

[gazhodge1981]

Right i have spoken to the tax office regarding the p46 car and they wont tell me anything but they have sent me a letter which will take around 14 days to get to me and they want £800 in back tax You have to love tax.

 

In the letter i got from ET Rules of Procedure 2004 :-

Employment Judge F****** directs me to ask your comments on the respondents assertion regarding your length of service that you were only employed for 11 months.

 

Can anyone give me some ideas on how to respond i don't think saying he is just telling porkies would cut it, even know in the response there are a lot of porkies

[gazhodge1981]

http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/h/m/Acas_Code_of_Practice_1_on_disciplinary_and_grievance_procedures.pdf

 

Having read the Acas rules (above) is there no way to argue had the steps been taken or even one of them in the guide this would be more than enough to cover me over the 12 months???

Also i was never given the option to a witness or any information on how to appeal as they has already had someone else starting in my position the day after.

[Gbarbm]

Gaz,

£800 in back tax.......that's looking like an employer error to me; try and find out how the underpayment arose.

 

Did you say in one of your earlier postings that the final payment included wages to 30 June which would count as 12 months even though it was paid early. Presumably they gave you a breakdown of how the total amount was made up so that payment would be shown and you could use that as evidence of being considered to be employed by the company for 12 months.

[gazhodge1981]

The messed the company car tax thing up in January, they just stuck everyone on a averaging scheme but the average was high, i would have had to be driving a Ferrari to get that CO2 banding lol, so they were changing it to what we were driving but i have requested my p11d of them a few times and they have never send it it now in my list of documents to have to supply.

In terms of a breakdown they gave me a wage slip for my may pay and another with the payment by cheque which has Basic pay, Commission - only the ones i had sold, holiday pay which is paid upto 30 june Car benefit less tax and N.I and this is shown on the year to date, so April, May and cheque. One thing my payslip does show is month payed 2 on both my may slip and the cheque slip.

[Gbarbm]

OK, well the car benefit error is their responsibility; car benefit is calculated as follows

 

You take the manufacturers UK list price (see Parkers, Prices or Glasses guide on line)

You establish the CO2 figure (go to www.hmrc.gov.uk/guidance/480_app)

You multiply the list price by the CO2 percentage to give you the full years car benefit

You then work out how many days you had use of the car and divide it by 365 (the full year)

This gives you the amended car benefit to date of leaving.

 

Tax Month 2 will be classed as the period from 6 May to 5 June so technically, any payment made on or after 6 June falls into month 3....

 

[CONCILLIATOR]

Right i have spoken to the tax office regarding the p46 car and they wont tell me anything but they have sent me a letter which will take around 14 days to get to me and they want £800 in back tax You have to love tax.

Has that Welsh taxman set you up? Must be true what they say about taxmen after all.

 

 

In the letter i got from ET Rules of Procedure 2004 :-

Employment Judge F****** directs me to ask your comments on the respondents assertion regarding your length of service that you were only employed for 11 months.

 

Can anyone give me some ideas on how to respond i don't think saying he is just telling porkies would cut it, even know in the response there are a lot of porkies

 

How to respond to respondent’s assertion regarding your length of service has been discussed extensively over several recent posts. Are you not satisfied with the suggestions offered?

[Gbarbm]

Hey ...... I heard that! ;-)

 

I think this is even more proof that the employer is negligent..... Which can only be good for the cause.

If there is an underpayment of tax as a direct result of the employer failing to satisfy their statutory obligations to HMRC then they are liable to pay the underpaid tax.

[gazhodge1981]

Has that Welsh taxman set you up? Must be true what they say about taxmen after all.

Sorry was thinking weather to gardening leave or not to gardening leave that is the question or do i go down the root of listing time and looking at the acas not followed root

[Gbarbm]

My thoughts are that if you had been given the proper notice (i.e. One month) then that would satisfy the 12 months continous employment. If the employer did not want you on the premises during the months notice period then it would have been quite In order for them to put you on gardening leave so essentially I would say (I'm no expert - just talking from experience) this constitutes unfair dismissal as the misconduct allegation is contrived and appears to have no basis in fact