iuc, please please help, I Hav an anxiety disorder, this letter has caused me distres

[Nystagmite]

Also had periods of time when i was staying with partner, for 6 weeks after csection with our twins, and for 4 months when i broke my leg.

 

To me, this sounds suspicious. Different, of course, if you stayed with your parents, etc.

[id6052]

you have stated in your original posts that you would have been financially better off if you had claimed as a couple.

 

as you received 280 as a single parent, but now get 330 as a couple, was your partner working or in receipt of benefits as either of these would have affected your entitlement

[Wizzer77]

He works and has never claimed benefits, but job quite low paid. We only get tax credits now and have 5 kids. Our finances were seperate.

 

Nystagmite, these periods of time have been okayed by the council and dwp as i informed them at time and they were fine with that. Which is what doesnt make sense. If i informed them in aug 2009 when i had csection and and in aug 2010 when i broke my leg. Both of which was documented and states that i called from hospital bed...why would i do that if i wasnt living there anyway!?! I have no family here. I am located in dorset, every single member of my family live on isle of wight. So wouldnt be able to stay after emergency c section and broken anke (which was pinned and i was non weight bearing for 3 months, all of which i can provide hospital reports for if needed)

[Wizzer77]

Obviously a low paid full time job is ok for 1 person but with 6 more, we are entitled to tax credits, so instead of my child tax credits, we also get working tax credits per week, which i didnt get as a lone parent. We are financially better off now we're a couple. Obviously i wish i had just done this from early on, but i thought i was being sensible and ensuring me and kids wouldnt be homeless again... Thought i was having a new start, did what ive always been advised and took things slowly... And look at the mess im in because of it! We dont claim hb now, we r entitled to council tax benefit, but this has scared me off claiming anything from council!!!

[id6052]

you should gather up as much evidence as you can to demonstrate that you were maintaining separate households

 

did you have a tv licence in your name at your old address?

were you visited by any official bodies at your old address? e.g. social services? such letters would carry more weight than letters from friends or family

what about phonebills? did you have a landline telephone? if so, copy bills would show you using the landline to phone out

[id6052]

when you registered the children's births in 2009, did you each provide separate addresses?

[id6052]

also when providing contact details for the new school, did you provide telephone number for your old address, or your partner's address?

 

at your tribunal, the judge will be asked to weigh up the evidence available, so it is important that you try to provide as much as possible (especially if it can be independently verified

 

as i stated earlier, the fact that you were willing to lie to the school/council to get round the school admissions policy may make you an unreliable witness for a judge

[id6052]

also was your partner paying you child maintenance for the twins - if so, would this be shown on your bank statements

 

if it is not, they might ask why not

[Wizzer77]

Ok, no i didnt have a tv, i never really watched tv, and couldnt afford the license, was too scared of getting caught lol

 

just have health visitor records and she stated home visit on a few dates, and on a date just after twins born states that i was staying there to recover, also has a couple of home visits after. But just says home visits.

 

On birth certificates yes we did provide seperate addresses, and didnt have a landline as they were included in my debtors for my bankruptcy. I had a mobile, which was also on the form for school. Alo wit his landline, quite stupidly! But i was there in daytime more than anywhere else, or my friends. But i slept at my house! We didnt live together, we didnt share finances, i didnt really pay bills as they were all included in my bankruptcy, u cannot imagine how poor i was! Even written on call log made in 2009 says i was so poor that i sold household items :-/

[Nystagmite]

It's not to do with where you sleep. Technically, you could be classed as a couple and not sleep in the same house at all.

[Bustard]

apparently the DWP / LA's have to prove a couple were effectively living as man and wife and there is financial dependence . I've seen the strict DWP guidelines on this- there is a PDF file link on the internet . http://www.advicenow.org.uk/living-together/money/readers-questions-what-counts-as-living-together-html,547,FP.html hyperlinks on that article

 

£ 0.5 million of resources has been put into fraud and the whip is being cracked from a very great height , the lurid headlines in the papers are to give the impression that people are " at it " ...rolls eyes

 

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewforum/8/

Edited September 25, 2011 by Bustard

[Bustard]

Overpayments went up by 13% in 2009 and Prosecutions went down by 11 % hence the whip being cracked and the The Daily Mail / Express headlines

[Wizzer77]

So does that mean u think im gonna b screwed bustard? Ahhhhh this is so stressful!! Why didn't I just move in earlier, be better off financially and more secure and have a 100 times better quality of life earlier?!?! I had no gain from being a single parent... If I'd gained money etc then at least I could've weighed up the risks n had a chance at benefitting!!! So far I've lived a **** life to get to this point! Why did I listen to my messed up head telling me that I need to take my time, make sure I was 100% b4 putting myself at risk of being homeless for the 2nd time in my 9 years of being a legal adult, for this! To be accused of being essentially a thief and a liar, I'm neither!!! Just Blimmin messed up and now stressed! Lol :-/

[Bustard]

" So does that mean u think im gonna b screwed bustard? Ahhhhh this is so stressful!To be accused of being essentially a thief and a liar, I'm neither!!! "

 

 

No accusation was made , I've put the DWP guide link to show in black and white as to what they class as living together . Secondly you mention a tribunal which is far more informal and less intimidating than a court .

 

As to prosecution policy and the politics behind it I was talking in general terms . If DWP / LA authority management want to go on wild goose chases with weak cases and shoddy evidence to impress their masters , that's their problem .

[Wizzer77]

Oh no i know u wasnt accusing me, just ranting about bekng accused in 1st place

Theyre saying that after tribunal they gonna consider prosecuting me anyway thank u for ur info x

[Bustard]

not sure if making threats is very professional ............if they've got grounds ....evidence is everything

[honeybee13]

Hello there wizzer, sorry to hear about your problems.

 

I don't know as much about all this as Bustard seems to. Bustard, if they had evidence, would they bother going to a tribunal, do you think? To my mind, and it's not my field, if they had firm evidence, wouldn't they just prosecute?

 

My best, HB

[Bustard]

this is interesting , an ex DWP Fraud Investigator blowing the whistle saying there's pressure , which can be just a nice word for bullying ; to target specific alleged offences . He / she stated we'd do better to get people working on the side , or the IB / ESA claimant that was swinging the lead with evidence and making something stand up in court http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/12/jobcentre-plus-benefits-fraud

 

I've seen another posting by a very old school DWP Investigator on a well known Social Networking Site , saying 3 /5 relationships amongst his or her colleagues ended up in split ups and / or divorce such was the pressure from management and being sent on wild goose chases

.

I agree the bit about tribunals and the " we'll prosecute afterwards " is very curious .

 

It may be a case of immaturity on a member of staff's part , the over keen and zealous company man type getting too emotionally involved and taking things too personally ....and everything from on high is absolute gospel , that's not just having a go at the DWP , you can get mediocre but very ambitious types at ASDA that could be sniffy and sulky if they failed to get someone for shoplifting , again they have a very regimented and top down managerial style , one size fits all and management by diktat .

Edited September 27, 2011 by Bustard

[Wizzer77]

I've been completely upfront, do u think (in ur opinion) from what I've sed that they have a strong case against me? Thank u for ur help so far.

 

The lady sed that a tribunal and prosecution r 2 different things (which I kno) and that they don't tie in, so 1 decision doesn't affect the other so if I win tribunal I could still lose court case and visa versa.

 

I am so unbelievably stressed, I have had a suicide attempt in 2008 (again I can prove) n have had such an unstable life, if this ruins my future I don't know how I would get through

[Bustard]

" The lady sed that a tribunal and prosecution r 2 different things (which I kno) and that they don't tie in, so 1 decision doesn't affect the other so if I win tribunal I could still lose court case and visa versa. "

 

 

is this just that person's opinion extrapolated into " fact " and what she would like you to think ? bluff and bluster ? ....my hunch is that it sounds like sour grapes from her though of course I could be wrong ........you have to play devils advocate on everything they say and do , not take anything at face value

 

Basically you're on their territory not knowing the rules , obviously they'll have a game plan , so you have to learn at least some of the rules of the game ( which it will be to them ) quickly .

 

 

" * The tribunal can only look at the evidence, the law and the circumstances at the time we made the decision you are appealing against. * " there will be a legally qualified person on the tribunal panel ....that can have some bearing on matters . There can be cases when somebody wins a tribunal but is tried and convicted in court ,

 

In some instances you can say always appeal as it could be argued this is what they are banking on you not doing .

 

or a solicitor has negotiated with the DWP / An LA and the DWP or LA has dropped the prosecution , there has been times when the DWP or LA have pulled out of a tribunal because it's become obvious that their case is too weak .

 

 

There also have been times when a DWP / LA haven't even bothered to send someone to a tribunal as their case is that weak , Solicitors / Lawyers / Barristers have complained the evidence was too shoddy but ! the DWP / LA had to be seen to be doing something because there was pressure from on high .

 

If there is a Court Case ...get a solicitor he / she can challenge and contradict things .....at the very , very worst case scenario a duty solicitor can state mitigating circumstances on your behalf

Edited September 27, 2011 by Bustard

[Wizzer77]

She woman from l/a sed at they will be sending everything to there solicitor who will decide whether to prosecute :-/

I dont really understand how u can win a tribunal but not a court case, cos 1 is beyond resonable doubt n the other balance of probability. Bit strange but hey, this whole thing is strange to me.

 

I am okay to admit i lied on school application, i know i was wrong, but i do have a report from education welfare from only a month before changing school, to support my decision of changing schools. Which is the reason they took thisback to that date.

 

And i have response to my low electric usage, i was hardly ever in, and never really used lights at night. But my financial situation was so dire that i would be behind in my electric. And would have to pay lump sums toget electric back on my key meter. Which wasnt to regularas i just scraped by, which i have all my life.

[Bustard]

" I dont really understand how u can win a tribunal but not a court case, cos 1 is beyond resonable doubt n the other balance of probability. Bit strange but hey, this whole thing is strange to me. "

 

This has been a criticism of both the DWP and LA's , it has been discussed on here but unfortunately I think ? they can do it , strange as it sounds .

 

They don't always prosecute , there's cautions , administrative penalties , in some instances they know that someone is terrified of being in the local rag in the Magistrates Court reports that'll they take it when in actuality they'd possibly get a lesser punishment in court . Also there is the cost of hiring a court and the courts solicitor for them to be fair . OR ! they could be under pressure to go for glory in court as prosecutions dropped by 11 % and they've got to keep Sun , Express and Daily Mail readers happy

 

Some LA's are smarter than others , there's a thing called " In the Public Interest "

 

http://www.eden.gov.uk/benefits-and-tax/benefits/benefit-fraud/benefit-fraud-sanctions-policy/ most councils more or less operate in the same way ?

 

This is the interesting bit

 

The Decision to Prosecute

 

Prior to the Sanction Panel deciding if a Prosecution is appropriate, the following will have to be considered.

 

Sufficient Evidence

 

In making this decision, the following must be considered;

 

is the evidence clear and concise.

 

 

have there been any failings in the Investigation that may have an adverse effect on the case.

 

have there been any failings in the administration of benefit by Council that may have an adverse effect on the case, including delay.

 

The Public Interest Test

 

The following factors will be considered in making the decision to prosecute;

 

the amount of the Overpayment and the duration of the alleged offence.

 

an abuse of position or privilege.

 

does the claimant suffer from significant mental or physical ill health and would a prosecution have an severe adverse impact on their health.

 

did the claimant voluntarily disclose any information prior to the commencement of the Investigation.

 

any previous incidence of fraud.

 

social factors.

 

whether there is evidence that the suspect was a ring leader or an organiser of the offence.

 

whether there was any planning in the process.

 

whether the claim was false from inception.

 

whether there are grounds for believing that the alleged offence is likely to be continued or repeated, based on any history or recurring conduct.

 

whether the alleged offence, irrespective of its seriousness, is widespread in the area where it was committed

 

 

I think ? they have to prove intent and motive again this is possibly where the IUC comes into play in some instances .................the classic scenario Solicitors use is the old , I picked up this CD in HMV then spotted so and so past the tills or even outside and had a chat , then the store detective or guard tapped me on the shoulder and I was taken into the Office etc , etc ....now the question is was somebody just being absent minded or ? ....it's actually used as a training thing

 

That person could well later be in front of the Magistrates ....and the Magistrates would go into a side room and one might say I don't believe this woman for a second but I have to give her the benefit of the doubt

Edited September 27, 2011 by Bustard

[Wizzer77]

Hiya,

I have received some great, helpful responses on here before n need help again please.....

 

I am attending a tribunal for housing benefit (18k) and income support (6k) and this is from feb ' 09- apr '11.

 

Their evidence.

 

Changed my childrens schools in feb '09 to one near my partners address and put his address down on school admission form as stepfather

 

Low elec usage, on average of 1.2 units a day

 

House appeared unlived in and 2 neighbours said they hadnt seen me for some time.

 

My counter evidence

 

Proof that a education welfare meeting took place 1 month prior to school change, in regards to my daughters poor attendance. This was because she was unhappy there.

 

Yes my electricity was low, but they hadnt taken into account 2 spells of staying with boyf after c-section and broken leg and ankle, both of which i informed them of at time, and was approved. Also proof the my financial situation was dire and i sometimes couldnt afford electricity for the meter. Also that i stayed in a different county visiting relatives, where the father of my eldest 3 children lives. I have proof that i stayed away from friends and family members in that other county.

 

Property appeared unlived in/lacking in furniture, and neighbours saying i didnt live there.... I have letter from letting agent saying that according to them it did appear i lived there, call logs from letting agent, where i state i couldnt afford much and had sold items. Witness statement from friend who lives in same town saying he visited my property. None of these neighbours will make statement to effect of me not living there.

 

This is about it with evidence along with that the reason i didnt move in sooner with partner, is because i had domestic violence with father of my eldest children, which is proved with medical records, solicitors letters between ex and i acknowledging an assault. Witness statement from my dad about my ex's temperament. Also i can provide medical evidence that my ex made me and children homeless, which is also a reason

to not move in sooner.

 

I am being accused of living witth my partner since feburary '09, i only moved in wit him this year. He owns his own home and is employed and doesnt claim, or ever has claimed benefits.

 

Firstly, this is a tribunal, which i understand is a civil matter for recovery of money, does this mean if they say ' on balance of probability' i was living with partner, would i be able to put the debt into a bankruptcy?

 

Also, do you think they have enough evidence to prosecute? There has been no mention of prosecution thus far.

 

Who decides the 'balance of probability'?? Is it just the judges opinion? Doesnt sound fair, that they can say...yeah u probably did so therefore i can ruin your life and make u pay back this amount.

 

Pleaae help me, its driving me mad any info would be fab x thank u xxx

[gemspan]

Hi WIzzer

 

I've read through this whole thread tonight and have to say my heart goes out to you as you are clearly very distressed about this situation. Time to take a step back and breathe a little I think!

 

I know what its like to suffer from anxiety so I can completely relate to you there. After an attack on my home its left me feeling very vulnerable and frightened.

 

Have you contacted your MP and local Councillor about this mess and arranged for them to investigate this?

 

Many people will say they live at another address to get their children into another school. I don't know how different it is in England to Scotland (where I live!) but many have done this and many will continue to do this in the coming years.

 

I think the whole issue surrounds the fact that you did this and that your electricity and gas was low usage. Some people who have never lived in poverty don't know what it's like to live below the poverty line and, let's not forget, that Councils are having to cut back drastically so its in their interests to reclaim where they can. I would imagine they will do this with whatever means they have at their disposal.

 

I think you now have to break this down into manageable steps for your mental health and general wellbeing.

 

My first port of call would be to make an appointment to see your MP at one of their local clinics and explain the situation to them - do the same with the local councillor. These people are there to help you and it's you that elected them so get them to step up to the plate and try to sort this mess out.

 

Get a letter from your doctor to advise the parties the anxiety and stress this is causing you and get him/her to send this to the parties involved.

 

I don't know much about the welfare system so I can't advise you on your deeper concerns relating to this but it would seem to me that if they are trying to claim back money when you were living as a single parent and you are now better off in a couple then this is an area that should be explored and perhaps the difference could be off-set. After all, you're either living as a couple or living as a single person so, either way, they have to make a decision and this is where your MP and local councillor can help. They can put this forward on your behalf.

 

I personally think they are clutching at straws because they really cannot prove anything; they are basing their allegations on evidence that you can refute!

 

It's time for you now to call in the people who are elected to help you in matters of this type. Once this is decided upon you can then look at whether it can be added to your bankruptcy as it was incurred more or less prior to this - but you were unaware of having these debts.

 

Additionally, I could see the point if you were owing this money but they are effectively stating that by owing this money you should have been entitled to additional monies in working tax credits. You need professional help here and I think your MP and local councillor can help but I would also get in touch with the welfare officer at the local CAB to get them involved. As above, I would also now get my doctor involved.

 

I feel heart sorry for you when there are people out there who are committing fraud day in day out and yet you, who is trying to make things good for your family, are being hounded for money that if they say you owe would mean you were getting less than the money you are entitled to.

 

They can't have it all ways and whatever is decided you were due money - but if they decide you were living with your boyfriend then they will have to get the money from the additional benefits you should have been applying for during that time.

 

I hope this makes sense but you shouldnt be going through this on your own. You need now to get people to help you that are there to do that and who have the means at their disposal to help you.

 

Either way I cannot see how this can be right but, as I've said, I'm no expert but one benefit seems to cancel out the other - if you see what I mean?

 

I hope this helps.

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

[Nystagmite]

Yes my electricity was low, but they hadnt taken into account 2 spells of staying with boyf after c-section

 

I seem to remember that because you have children together, they don't have to prove that you live together.

 

You state that you stayed with relatives - can they back this up?

 

Who decides the 'balance of probability'?? Is it just the judges opinion? Doesnt sound fair, that they can say...yeah u probably did so therefore i can ruin your life and make u pay back this amount.

 

They would need to hear the evidence from both sides. They can't just say "we think you lived together" without backing it up with something.