Withholding bank details

[ptol]

I had to sign on in January, and have qualified for JSA on income based.

 

Now in previous occasions (last time was 8 years ago) I was able to receive my benefits as a Giro. This time, the job centre are starting to get quite aggressive about me not providing bank details. I have been put on daily signing, however, as i get my travelling expenses it is actually an incentive to remain on a giro.

 

The question is, what further sanctions are they likely to apply to me?

[tinafromeast]

I'm sorry to seem dim, but why wouldn't you provide your bank details?

[ptol]

There are too many companies out there that have my card details which take occasional payments. If I have benefits paid into it, then I can't be confident that I will actually get my benefit money. At least with direct debits and standing orders you can cancel them.

[silverfox1961]

Why don't you set yourself up with a basic bank account and have your benefit paid into that. At least you would be in control then

[ptol]

You are right, I could open a new bank account. but if i have a choice, I would rather deal with cash, and not banks. My question is basically am i entitled to continue receiving benefits by giro's indefinitely, and what additional sanctions could be applied to me to pressure me into receiving benefits through a bank account.,

[ErikaPNP]

Direct payments to accounts are the preferred method of payment for DWP because in general it is more secure than postal giros.

 

I believe that they can only insist on an account being opened (and then they can only advise the Post Office Card Account) where a history builds up of lost or missing postal giros.

 

They are gradulally phasing out giro payments and eventually the aim is to no longer issue postal payments but certainly at the moment, they are still a method of payment and you are entitled to continue receiving them.

[caledfwlch]

When I worked on the Direct Payment programme we were told "in secrecy" that they would be unable to deny giro payments, it possibly would have involved some hefty legislation changes to do so, and then there are the issues of the homeless, bankrupts, people with fraud convictions etc, who either cannot or refuse point blank to have bank accounts - I even had people refusing a post office account, on the basis that it was run by Citibank who were apparantly "unethical agents of the military industrial complex" hehe.

 

JC staff are trained to try and give the impression to the client that they must have direct payment, but afaik, they still cannot insist upon it. And putting someone on daily signing sounds rather like bullying/harrassment for not following the party line, maybe a word with CAB? Or ask the JC staff member to provide evidence of which legislation/rules they are relying upon to do this...

 

To the OP though, do what I did last week after someone I cancelled with a while ago decided to take a payment from my account - cancel your card and get a new one - that will make it impossible for anyone who has your old debit card details to make any more debits - problem solved.

[ptol]

The daily signing has actually been very agreeable for me. It means i get daily travel allowance which after diesel costs gives me £10 towards car tax and insurance costs each week. I don't think that was quite the intention though.

 

There is one of the managers that seems to have marked my card. She makes an atmosphere of aggression and intimidation towards me every time she talks to me. She's quite skilled in making sure its not the words she says, but how she says them. Needless to say, I'd much rather get a job than sign on, and the banks and my wife can and are putting far more pressure on me than anyone in a job centre can. In the mean time, smiling, politely standing my ground and knowing that as long as I am still breathing is enough revenge for me. Especially as at the moment I get to do it every day

[ptol]

I came under severe pressure today over not passing on my bank details. The same manager has carried on trying to create an atmosphere of intimidation. So far all the threats have been implied, rather than actual such as "We cannot allow this situation to carry on indefinitely", or "it is unacceptable to keep spending £x of public money on daily travel expenses"

 

I have made it clear that my preference is to receive my payments by giro, that I would rather deal in cash, and that a bank account with a card that I can take money out of a cash machine is not more convenient if you have £9.55 in your account. I have also pointed out that the legislation is such that Giro is a valid benefits payment mechanism,and that I an entitled to receive payments by Giro, and secondly that I am aware she has been trained to imply to me that I am not entitled to receive my payments that way.

 

Today, she tried to get me to open an account by phone actually at the job centre with the Co-op.

 

I am thinking the appropriate answer to this is to keep it simple and stick to my key issue that my preference is to receive payments by giro. As a last resort, I am thinking of pointing out that they are expecting me to enter into a contract with a new bank under duress and against my expressed wishes, that they are not entitled to make this demand by law, and so are resorting to intimidation, which is a breach of their job centre charter.

 

is this reasonable? any one have any ideas on what the job centre will do next?

[watchinginvestigation2010]

Hi, just a mention that the coop basic bank account is very good, I use them.

[ptol]

That's great, the nearest branch is around 10 miles away. So when i get £9.55 in my account I have no way to extract the cash!

[caledfwlch]

Tell the Jobcentre your thinking of going bankrupt, so no point

 

That, or that given the issues with the type of data CRA's are storing, your not prepared to open up anything that registers with them.

 

Or you could use my fave line from a guy I once interviewed to try and persuade him to open a bank acccount

 

The banks are all stooges of the United States Military/Industrial Complex, and as a free man refuse to allow the CIA to see what I am purchasing"

 

That may work, and it may also have the added benefit of them not really wanting to deal with you anymore, so every signing on they will do the formalities ASAP to get you out

 

I would also demand to speak to the manager of the person you are having problems with and with over manager, start the steps for a formal complaint, it is not their job or their lawful right to attempt to make you phone the bank there and open an account.

 

It also sounds like she is in breach of civil service rules - did she specifically order you to phone Co-Op? Because when I was doing Direct Payment, we were strictly, and absolutely forbidden from suggesting a specific bank or favouring one over the others - that is quite a serious issue, since it leaves the DWP at risk of breaching rules of impartiality etc, and her manager may very well REALLY not be happy about this - especially when she realises that you know this is a naughty thing. Mention that the complaint will be going to your MP also. You might finally get left alone then.

[ptol]

Yeah, she said Co-op by name, and was wanting to put me on the phone in the job centre to open the account.

 

Part of me is thinking this is dangerous, this woman has marked my cards, and the slightest slip up and there will be no benefit of the doubt, she will apply a sanction. Then the other part of me thinks, my card is already marked, so i might as well have some entertainment along the way....

 

I'm not sure that objecting on the basis that the CIA track my purchases is particularly my style. I'm kind of the passive resistance type. I'm quite content to sit there each day. smiling, relaxed, and just keep saying in a calm voice, "why are you even bothering?"

[caledfwlch]

Yeah, she said Co-op by name, and was wanting to put me on the phone in the job centre to open the account.

 

Part of me is thinking this is dangerous, this woman has marked my cards, and the slightest slip up and there will be no benefit of the doubt, she will apply a sanction. Then the other part of me thinks, my card is already marked, so i might as well have some entertainment along the way....

 

I'm not sure that objecting on the basis that the CIA track my purchases is particularly my style. I'm kind of the passive resistance type. I'm quite content to sit there each day. smiling, relaxed, and just keep saying in a calm voice, "why are you even bothering?"

 

Make sure you do everything they ask (except get a bank account) you cannot be sanctioned for that.

[ptol]

It might come as a surprise, but the principle thing I am trying to do is to get a job.

 

I hear that they stop your benefits when that happens

[watchinginvestigation2010]

That's great, the nearest branch is around 10 miles away. So when i get £9.55 in my account I have no way to extract the cash!

 

Well that was an uninformed coment in reply, have you looked into this, nope, but my branch is also ten to fifteen miles away. However they do an online account, which can use any cash point and the post office are happy to pay in cheques and cash and credit to the account.

 

I can over the phone set up dds or so and if want to do it online, though I dont like that and prefer to call, no hastle.

 

I personally think you are just being awkward, there I have said it. A bit like cheques nowadays and them being not accepted for this and that, as annoying it is to those who prefer them, its best just to move on and accept things.

 

If we all demanded giros!!!!!!!

 

And as for needing to withdraw an exact ammount, the co op card can be presented to the post office counter. Hi can I withdrawer £9.55 please? Hence me feeling you are just putting barriers infront of yourself, sorry.

 

What if one of your giros goes missing, I remember having to wait two weeks for another or having to apply for crisis loan, none of that happens now, so its for our convinience also, not a matter of withdrawing a right.

 

Best wishes.

Edited February 9, 2011 by watchinginvestigation2010

[ptol]

Whilst I see nothing wrong with being awkward from time to time, that is not the motivation.

 

My motivation is that I always cope with limited money by dealing with physical cash. It's my management strategy. Once you start having banks in the loop, and cash machines, you get into situations where you either have to pay £1.95 to get to your money, or cannot get that last £9.55 out. you start having direct debits, standing orders and making card payments and it becomes all to easy to loose track, and attract bank charges.

 

The fact that I am being bullied over this is wrong. it is immoral, and that is quite a strong motivator for me to dig my heals in and be awkward.

[borisbeaver]

It might come as a surprise, but the principle thing I am trying to do is to get a job.

 

I hear that they stop your benefits when that happens

At which point you will need a bank account as most companies pay their employees by bacs transfer.

[ptol]

At which point you will need a bank account as most companies pay their employees by bacs transfer.

 

i have two bank accounts. Both of which would be suitable for being paid a months salary into, and are also capable of swallowing a fortnights benefit payment leaving no money left over.

[MONX]

You say that you dont want to use your bank account and that your motivation for this is that you would find it difficult to withdraw the last tenner or less from the account should you need it, i sympathise to a certain extent but a very good way of dealing with this is to make sure that you withdraw your last tweny quid before it becomes an odd number that is not divisible by ten....I think that to be honest you are creating barriers where there are none.

 

All benefit comes from the tax payer, thats you and me and everyone else in the country. All government departments are responsible for how they spend the public's money and one of the main savings the departments dealing with benefits can make is to pay everyone by the bacs system, by comparison this is mere pence where a cheque cashable at the post office is more four to five times more expensive, they are trying to save you money!

 

An employer will expect to pay you into a bank, as such the jobcentre if they felt like it could say that you are creating a barrier to work by not getting/providing bank details! They could then sanction your money all together! It wouldnt matter then the method of payment because you wouldnt get one!

[afcwben]

I think there is a point of principle here,an employer may make it part of the employment contract to pay salary etc into a bank account, but, it seems this is not the case with JSA and the person at the JC is trying to impose their will on the OP. I have seen many times when JC staff act as bulliles, irrespective whether it is easy or not for the OP to open a bank account it is his right to recieve the money in a Giro

[caledfwlch]

I personally prefer BACS payment, my money clears at 2am on the receiving days which proves useful.

 

But I fully support PTOL's right to not give the DWP his bank details. Ptol is not really costing the taxpayer any more, many, many people are still on giro's, because they cannot get a bank account (there are good reasons for this) and most jobcentres print Giro's off every day as this is how crisis loans for example are usually paid.

 

Its quite funny - because when I was working on the Direct Payment programme for DWP, they were very pleased about the new shiny, Post Office Card Accounts, thinking it was a perfect solution for the many people unable or unwilling to get a bank acc, and of course, within a few months RM started closing down or cutting back Post Offices, leaving rural people stuffed.

 

I did hear some bloody stupid excuses from people I interviewed though

 

One guy - I mentioned him further up - the "Military/industrial complex" chap. He told me that he didnt want the bank account or post office one, because of the paranoid delusion stuff, but another big reason was, he didnt want things like bank statements to arrive, because he lived in a caravan park full of dodgy people, and someone was apparantly going through his mail, and he didnt want them seeing his account details.

 

All very well, apart from the one logical flaw! He was receiving Giro's in the post to the dodgy caravan park!!!

[ptol]

An employer will expect to pay you into a bank, as such the jobcentre if they felt like it could say that you are creating a barrier to work by not getting/providing bank details! They could then sanction your money all together! It wouldnt matter then the method of payment because you wouldnt get one!

That argument has already been tried by the job centre. It does not hold water, as I have two bank accounts, and I am quite happy for an employer to pay me directly into a bank account, and have done so in the recent past.

[ptol]

Today's daily sign on went a lot smoother.

 

When I arrived, I asked the reception to ensure that I was not seen by that person, as they had been bullying me on the previous two days. They were quite happy to organise it. When I was called and went to this new persons desk, the other member of staff tried to intervene and say say that she wanted a word with me afterwards. I said that after the bullying from the last few days, I was happy to talk to any other member of staff about any issue they wished, but would not deal with her. If she had an issue that she needed raising, then she was welcome to ask someone else to handle that issue with me. She told me quite aggressively in front of the other member of staff that if she wanted to talk to me, she would talk to me. Anyway, both members of staff disappeared for a few minutes.

 

When they came back, I signed on as normal, was asked a couple of questions about my last night's job search, sorted out the mileage on my travel expenses, and then asked if there was any other issue that they would like to raise with me today, and was told, quite pleasantly, no, you are free to go.

[watchinginvestigation2010]

Well glad to see your likely to get less hastle anyhow. Dont you find it stressfull on daily signing?