Confused about fraud!!!

[xJTx]

Thanks Jadeybags, Im going to need all the luck I can get,

Hoping the appeal will at least bring me slightly closer to an end (good or bad) I need this to be over, its been going on far too long and is making me ill

[jadeybags]

It's definitely been going on a while hasn't it. All court cases drag on from start to finish. It's a shame it cant be done quicker. It must be so draining x

[spysgirl]

hi jt ,i was living with a partner and was grassed on by a neighbour who was originally a friend we fell out and she gave the dwp every inch of my private life ,by the time i was given a iuc they had stacks of evidance against me ,i had to wait 8 agonising months from start to sentancing

my overpayment was a years werth of £2500 ,as i have 5 children i was getting a high weekly amount ,i was put in my local paper for everyone to read ,some people were like ohh !! some ie the wealthy mums looked me up and down ,my friends stayed my friends my teen daughters had a few comments made at school ,the werst was not knowing who knew and who didnt no ,

i recieved a years community order so i was really lucky ,

sad thing is i have a daughter with autism and altho were nt together anymore i am now being interviewed again by both council and dwp under caution because i had him over more often than i should have to help ,its a real mess for me to as he is homeless and stays on his mates sofa whos on benefits the mate didnt want to make him pay any rent because he didnt want it to affect his benefits ,im terrified ,if you want to talk im here either pm me or on thread ,please dont worry my solicitor said unless your a danger to the public your highly unlikely to go to prison ,but there are cases were people do but very rare ,the sad thing is when your prosicuted finding a job then becomes impossible such a vicious circle

i have a nurse and she said just try to chill out cause whatever will be will be we cant control there desicion ,im sure your be fine and in a few months your be back on here advising people what your going through now ,keep strong ,

[xJTx]

Hi, just a quick question (if anybody can help, it’d be great)

I appealed the decision that was made following my IUC and wondered if anyone knows what happens next.

Do I get called to another meeting or does somebody else just look though all the proof I’ve sent in and make a decision based on that?

I really have no clue, anything anyone could tell me would be great as I appealed in April and have heard noting since.

Many thanks.

[ErikaPNP]

When you appeal, originally it goes to someone within the department to 'reconsider' he original decision. For this, they will look at all of the evidence available at the date the decision was made and any additional evidence provided since which pertains to the period being questioned. Most of the time they do not require anything further and a decision will be made in due course. In some cases they may need to contact you for clarification, but it is rare that they do this. And in other cases, they may contact you for further evidence if required. Once they have completed the reconsideration, they will advise you by letter whether they have sent your case to the tribunal services (this happens if they are unable to revise the decision) or whether the appeal has lapsed (this happens if they have revised the case in your favour or partially in your favour). If the case has been revised in your favour, or partially, they will tell you what their new decision is.

[id6052]

as i understand things the DWP's standard for dealing with appeals is about 3 months - they don't arrange another meeting as a rule (though i expect it can happen if they think it is necessary), so it is important to make sure you submit any evidence or papers you want the decision maker to consider -

 

if they allow your appeal, the decision will be changed

 

they can however allow your appeal in part (e.g. if they reduce overpayment from £20k to £18k), which would mean that they will issue a new decision with fresh appeal rights, and process would start again

 

if they do not allow your appeal - the papers will be sent to the Court/Tribunal service who will arrange a hearing - there appears to be a major backlog in Tribunal hearings (due to number of ESA appeals), my local tribunal office is quoting 5 or 6 months from when they receive the papers from the DWP

[dollydoo29]

so has the whole case just been going on the fact that you are unable to provide evidence of your ex living elsewhere ? when you say he had nfa did thet not except friends saying he stayed there few nights ? your case id very same to mine but im waiting to go to the iuc which i might delay

[xJTx]

Well got my appeal letters though today showing everything that’s being sent to the appeal department and to be honest looking at that I’d say I was guilty, if I didn’t know I wasn’t.

There’s lots of bits that are in-auditable and then they’ve made a list of bullet points on why they think I’m guilty, including that it took so long to get statements off of people he lived with when he was of NFA.

Also they’ve said they have other evidence but will not be providing it to me as its an ongoing fraud case…. I do not understand why this is as the time span they keep referring back to finished last year.

I’m even more confused that I was when it all started.

Judging by this I think I can kiss goodbye to my freedom, I’ll try and keep you all posted as best as I can, but if I disappear from here in the near future feel free to assume the worst.

Thanks for everyone’s help, it’s a great site, with a fantastic bunch of people.

[leemack]

They have to provide you with anything they plan to use at tribunal. Sounds like a bluff to me.

 

Also, the length of time to get statements is not evidence of guilt - you have no control over another person's actions and cannot compel them to work to your timescale. What else do they have?

 

The DWP have to prove their case on a balance of probabilities at tribunal. You need to answer every piece of 'evidence' they have. It needs to be done in writing in the form of a statement which you provide to the tribunal with any other evidence you want to present - for instance details of what you face daily with your childs disability, and therefore why you needed help and respite. Solicitors are not always good at putting a case together for tribunal, so you may need to write the statement yourself - come back to us if you want advice on how to write it.

 

Just because the DWP make allegations, doesn't mean they're true and doesn't mean that you cannot refute them.

[xJTx]

Thanks so much for your help.

Its does ask if I have any further evidence to enclose, would this be where I’d attach the statement you’ve mentioned?

You say to answer any evidence they have, they only have a few face book entries that they told me about during the IUC. I couldn’t answer why I’d made the comments at the time (but after going home and checking to find out the date) it became quite obvious to me, can I include this?

Also they have said they have surveillance, but have not given me the dates and times of this and only disclosed 3 consecutive days to my solicitor just before the IUC.

The rest of their “evidence” is letter to my address, but he has post going all over the place, is it worth me pointing this out?

That’s all the evidence they have, apart for the fact he was NFA, but then he has letters from people who have given him somewhere to stay (they have also attended an interview with the DWP to confirm they wrote the letters and answer any further questions)

Any help you could give me on what to write in the statement would be fantastic, I may be fine chatting on here, but I was a mess in that interview and looking at the transcripts even I’m convinced I’m guilty.

Thanks again, your really dont know how much everyone's help means to me.

[jadeybags]

Have I missed it somewhere, but are they prosecuting you now? If you have been summonsed, they should be providing what evidence they have against you, that's the way it works. So you can then build your defence.

If they haven't stated they are prosecuting you yet, & it's still in the investigation stage, then they dont have to give you every detail, no.

And to be honest, I would save any evidence you have against them for your solicitor.

It's the sceptic in me when it comes to British justice. Evidence against you has a habit of changing at the eleventh hour if you have proof to contradict it. It happens.

Oh, sorry, just seen the last few posts. If it's the appeal you're providing evidence for, yes, do it.

[xJTx]

So far jadeybags I’ve been for 3 IUC (2 at DWP and one at the council, as the man from the DWP didn’t give the woman from the council enough time to ask her questions) I’ve had a decision letter saying they think I’ve committed fraud and owe thousands back, my solicitor is helping me to appeal (but has said worst case scenario is I could go to prison) I’ve now gotten all of the paperwork they are sending into the appeals service and am trying to sort out anything I should be sending in.

Think that’s about it Hun

[jadeybags]

Well, it seems to be the norm that benefit savvy solicitors do state you could go to prison. Fair play really that they give you the worst case scenario. My friends solictior told him that. And his, between HB & DWP was way more than yours to start with. But his court case was stopped on the actual day.

Doesn't mean they dont want money back, he is still going to fight that, but the prosecution has stopped.

When you think that at the moment they are busting a gut to cut costs in the way of prisons, there probably hasn't be a less likely time to be sent to prison for something that is no threat to the general public, than it is now.

[leemack]

In these cases there is a two pronged approach - appeal the overpayment (a civil case), which is what the OP is doing at the moment, then if necessary fight any criminal case in court if charges are brought. A successful appeal can have a big impact on whether a case is prosecuted.

 

Back later, after dinner.

[xJTx]

I hope your right jadeybags, to say I’m bricking it is an understatement!!!

[leemack]

OK, sorry I didn't have time to do this yesterday, but suggestions for your statement.

 

Firstly start by stating why you're appealling - so for instance - I'm appealling this overpayment on the grounds that I was not living together as husband and wife with (state name of the fella) during the time period (state alleged time period). We have not lived together since (state last date you lived together). The evidence that has been provided is circumstantial and there has been no account taken of our difficult situation in caring for a disabled child.

 

Secondly write a paragraph about your circumstances, what life is like looking after a child with autism, mention that autistic children can't deal with changes in environment and need stability and routine. Talk about how important it is for you to have help and respite and any night time needs your child has, requiring you to have night time help several nights a week so you can get to sleep (obviously only if this is the case - I have assumed as it is typical with autistic children to have difficulties at night) . Try and get some evidence showing that your child has been diagnosed with autism and include it when you send in the paperwork. Also anything that states typical problems for autistic children, or even better if you have a report showing the specific problems your child has.

 

Then a paragraph talking about your ex's housing issues ie he had no fixed abode, was staying with various different people and had his post going all over the place (if you can provide copies of post that was sent to several different addresses at around the same time, then this would be good). Explain that the way your ex was living was not a good environment for him to take care of children in, particularly one with such special needs and a need for continuity and routine. Explain that because of this your ex spent several nights of week at your house giving you respite from caring so that you could have a rest and get some sleep.

 

Then take each piece of 'evidence' and refute each one individually - one paragraph each, explaining each thing. Also refute any 'assumptions' made and point out that they are assumptions with no evidence base.

 

End by saying something like - I respectfully request that the Tribunal find that I was not living with (insert his name) during the period (insert dates)

 

Hope that helps, if you want us to read through what you write, we'd be happy to. Don't send it off till nearer the time just in case any new 'evidence' is sent to you. Make sure you also provide a copy for your solicitor, but state it's for his information only and that you'll be sending off the final version, when you're sure there's no new evidence to refute.

[xJTx]

Hi, thanks so, so much for that Leemack. I’ll be sure to get started straight away.

Is it possible that anybody could explain how they can make a decision, send out the decision notice and it be going to appeal but they can withhold information as it’s an “ongoing investigation” I thought once this part of it was over (whatever the outcome may be) I’d be left alone.

Is this not going to be the case?

Many thanks to all again.

[leemack]

This is the appeal - the civil case. It decides whether or not you were living together under benefit law. If you're successful, there would be little point in them taking the matter further, because if its decided that under benefit law you weren't living as a couple - then you didn't commit fraud.

 

If you're not successful, or only partially successful, then there would be the option of them taking further action - for instance a caution, applying a penalty (like a fine, a percentage of the overpayment), or in a worst case scenario, criminal prosecution.

 

Not sure why they're 'holding evidence back', it could be a bluff, or it could just be they're hoping to find something else, or think they have a lead on something. Or they could be holding something back, I suppose - but if they don't use it for the tribunal, they would be stupid. They have to provide you, in advance of anything they plan to use at the tribunal.

[xJTx]

Ok, that makes slightly more sense to me now, although even the simplest of things seem to be confusing my mashed up head at the minute.

I thinks what’s so annoying is that I said repeatedly that if I’ve done something wrong I’m sorry, if he’s helped too often I apologise and how do I fix it.

They said about him moving back in and I’m quoted as saying “I need the help with the kids but I couldn’t live with him 24/7”

I’ve made it so clear that although I accept he maybe helped too much he never moved back in, but they just don’t seem content with this.

Its actually gone further than my life now, they’re effecting my kids. Ignoring the fact they’ve got a stressed out mum that keep bursting into tears and refuses to unpack boxes (we moved in Dec) because I’m sure I’m going to prison for this, they now only have a weekend dad.

Unless I’m ill and cant manage or the kids are ill and asking for him he refuses point blank to come and help with anything through the week.

Even down to one of our children having a specialist appointment in a months time, he says if they know he’s there then they’ll say its as good as us being together.

They’ve taken everything from my kids for the sake of me having too much help (which I’ve admitted to and asked to be given the chance to fix - which they wouldn’t help me do)

Sorry about the rant, but I just don’t see why they cant help me sort things out, why are they so hell bent on stitching me up!?

[leemack]

There is no such thing as too much help, and you both need to stop thinking that way - and suggesting that you're in any way to blame. There is no benefit law saying that having lots of help from an ex means you're living together.

 

There are couples still living in the same house, but not as husband and wife, who are allowed to be considered as separate households under benefit law.

 

The difficulty is, the more you keep apologising for your completely innocent actions to the fraud investigators, the more guilty it will make you appear.

 

You need to both be proud of the care you are providing for your disabled child. That you both put your differences aside to help eachother and your children. There is no shame in that and no blame either. Don't go into an appeal apologetic - you've done nothing wrong. Go into the appeal defending a way of life that works best for your family. As long as you're not living together then you've done absolutely nothing wrong, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

Stop apologising, say when asked 'I've done nothing wrong, I've broken no laws, and committed no fraud'.

[xJTx]

I know your right, the person I spoke to at CAB said the same thing.

The really stupid thing is that after me telling him everything I could possible think of he actually gave me a form and said once this is over would you call this number and talk to someone about working here - That really gave me the boost into thinking that once I got to the interview they would take the same attitude towards me.

Unfortunately looking at the way I came across and the way they’ve spoken about me, I look guilty as sin.

If only it hadn’t been for the person that interviewed me at the jobcentre I’d be fine.

I know that sounds a bit like a murderer saying if only it wasn’t for DNA id be fine, but it really feels like without the person that interviewed me being so good cop/bad cop all rolled into one I really think I’d have done fine.

The person that did the IUC at the council was a totally different story, they asked questions and listened to what I had to say even wishing me look as I left.

I keep trying to push this to the front of my mind, but it just wont take the place of the thought that I could one day (soon) find myself behind bars.

[xJTx]

Hi again... looking for a bit of advice on changing my court date.

I was sent a form regarding any dates I couldn’t attend the tribunal and stated that I couldn’t go on a certain date, only 1 week was listed, I didn’t try (like I’ve heard others have) to list all my kids birthdays, my birthday, the dogs funeral and the hamsters cage cleaning day, it was just one week, when my kids are on half term and I wanted to take them away as its the closest (and cheapest) date to my eldest child’s birthday... and something we've done nearly every other year (money allowing)

I’ve had my court date through today and its been booked for one of the days I’ve stated.

I know they see me as being in the wrong and probably don’t care about my holiday but I’ve tried so hard to get the money for this, taking out loans and living off of thin air to get to a point where we can have (maybe) one last holiday together.

I do understand that there are people on here working all hours god sends and cant afford a holiday and are probably rolling their eyes in my direction right now, but I’m worried I might not be around if this all goes wrong and want to be there to see the first time my youngest sees the sea and plays on the fair.

Is there no way I can change the date?? As I said I know this might seem like nothing in the grand scheme of things, but its really important to me.

Thanks for reading my moan, any comments would be great.

[Bustard]

definitely appeal now, as it can take months for these things to get to tribunal

 

always appeal they are banking on you not doing so ....call their bluff the rulebook works both ways ? , only 67 % of over payment decisions are found to be correct , that leaves a third that are incorrect and if there's advocacy it goes up to 63 % . Interesting discussion on this http://www.ukdebate.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=10679.0

Edited September 25, 2011 by Bustard

[Bustard]

DWP Guidelines on what is deemed to be a couple etc http://www.advicenow.org.uk/living-together/money/readers-questions-what-counts-as-living-together-html,547,FP.html

[Bustard]

Thanks for your reply, sorry mine are so long winded, I just want to make sure I give as much information as possible.

 

They read a comment Id wrote on my ex’s facebook page that said about his "sitting on his a**e whilst I did everything* They didn’t let me see the quote or I could have explained it (as I later looked on his page and saw it was said the day before our daughters birthday) but they claimed that it was proof he lived here as he was expected to do things around the home.

The surveillance was dates and times on a sheet of paper. It was said to have been done over a 4 week period but they didn’t tell me which 4 weeks or show/state to me any dates/times. The closest I got to an explanation was "we've seen him coming and going late evening/early morning. Suggesting he goes to/from work to your home"

There was nothing said about photos.

I’m starting to get really worried now as I have now received a letter telling me my payments of council tax and housing benefit have been suspended until I inform them of my change of circumstances regarding living with someone.

I really am at a loss as to how we are going to cope once my income support, tax credits, disability living allowance, child benefit and carers allowance stop (which I assuming will happen in the near future)

I am trying to use any money I do have now to get shopping and pay bills (or anything that will be cut off) but I’m at a loss as to what will happen in the long run.

As I have said they advised I sign off income support and inform all other benefits that my ex has moved back in, correcting the status of the money I do have coming in, but I really don’t want him back.

He’s happy where he is now and (up until a week ago) I was happy with my situation, I really don’t want to move backwards after finally finding my feet.

 

sounds like what they call a fishing expedition i.e. laying the bait and hoping something will bite , and there appears to be a lot of psychological verbal bullying on their part - pressure is no excuse for it , an IUC is possibly an opportunity for them to get you to provide that vital piece of the jigsaw ....that's at least how they see it ! .

 

http://www.advicenow.org.uk/advicenow-guides/problems-with-benefits/how-to-handle-an-interview-under-caution/what-is-benefit-fraud-html,655,FP.html interesting bit as to how differently things can be interpreted

 

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/pdfs/Benefit_fraud_Leaflet.pdf

 

I get the impression they want you to make life easier for them , there may well be pressure but you're not there for their benefit it's their problem not yours ....always , always appeal ...that's the one thing they're banking on you not doing . A successful appeal can put a different complexion on things if the worst comes to the worst and you end up in court . A solicitor can have a word with either the Court prosecutor that they've hired or their own prosecutor and they've been known to pull out ...same goes if they try to be too clever and lay things on too thick .

 

I'm afraid it appears they've already been snooping already and looking at a Facebook Account that may not be that secure and someone there has got excited seeing possible brownie points ? . I dare suggest that Privacy Settings , Security , Edit settings , How you connect , limit the audience for old posts on profile under Home may need looking at - I'd definitely advise others to do so

 

For their many , many shortcomings ...it'll probably get even worse if Private Debt / Fraud Bounty Hunters get in on the act ...just a sniff ? will do for them

 

 

http://www.advicenow.org.uk/living-together/money/readers-questions-what-counts-as-living-together-html,547,FP.html There's hyperlinks with DWP PDF guides as to exactly what is classed as living together ...think it's Number 1000 whatever ...their rule book if you will ....you may be able to throw it back at them ?

 

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewforum/8/

 

***** this is a very interesting cyber conversation , I used parts of this to prepare a statement for a IUC for a friend ..................there's good justifications for making statements as opposed to submitting to questioning

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forum-archive/index540d.html

 

Also Google Gardencourtchambers ( one word ) Interview under Caution / Benefit Fraud ...you'll get direct links to some interesting Microsoft Word Files that can be downloaded

Edited September 25, 2011 by Bustard