1st Credit & LCS Battle - court papers received - help

[DonkeyB]

No you’re no....zzzzzzzzzzzz

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

:sleep::faint:Ve Haf waaaaays ov makin you sleeeeep

[citizenB]

:sleep::faint:Ve Haf waaaaays ov makin you sleeeeep

 

 

 

:flock:

 

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

:madgrin:I like it not a lot but I like it

[newman]

Good morning Caggers and our friends in Surrey. Well I was going to post last night but fell asleep at the keyboard and I now have lots of little square imprints all over my face :)

I didnt have an opportunity to put the Brig's solution to the test but I have had a good sleep so feeling refreshed!! I will be going to get the stuff you recommended today Brig. I cannot disobey orders from on high!!!

 

I have decided to take a step back this weekend from anything to do with our friends in Surrey and to recharge my batteries - I need a break - going to do normal things like spending time with the wife and kids. We might even drag the deccies out of the loft and get the tree up!!! perish the thought. Also going to see the mother in law too - that is a wonderful weekly experience - she is lovely and I usually get a good sleep there as my wife and mum work their vocal chords overtime and I can never get a word in so I gave up trying a long time ago:) Love you mum xxxxx

 

So have a great weekend all and we will see you all very soon.

[newman]

..

[newman]

Well just called in to see if there were any other comments and I see we have 17 Guests - blimey that has to be a record - is that all of the 1st Credit contingency I wonder??

 

Well whoever you are - you are most welcome.

 

Nothing to report at the moment but of course we will keep all you lovely people in Surrey updated as soon as there is anything to report.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Just checking in, Newman. I wouldn't worry about the guests, probably a Tenalady staff day out that took a wrong turn at Reigate...

Just a thought, after something DonkeyB said....Have you given any consideration to issuing a Notice to Admit Facts?

 

Elsa x

[rebel11]

After doing some research, I came across this :- http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2009/20-09

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/press_release_attachments/1stcreditrequirements.pdf;jsessionid=689BB17A71EE2EA7166EA6AD76F6D720

[newman]

Just checking in, Newman. I wouldn't worry about the guests, probably a Tenalady staff day out that took a wrong turn at Reigate...

Just a thought, after something DonkeyB said....Have you given any consideration to issuing a Notice to Admit Facts?

 

Elsa x

 

Hi Elsa - I have been advised by one of my legal team that this is definately something we should serioucly consider - I have no idea what that is but they assure me they are working on it right now.

 

Thanks very much for the suggestion - great minds thinking alike

[newman]

After doing some research, I came across this :- http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2009/20-09

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/press_release_attachments/1stcreditrequirements.pdf;jsessionid=689BB17A71EE2EA7166EA6AD76F6D720

 

Cheers Rebel

 

Thans for those details and I have got both of those links thank you.

 

BAck in July I sent an official complaint off to both the OFT & TS and I referred extensively to that report from 2009. I also submitted my official complaint as Exhibit 2 and my exhibit 3 was the latest report in OCt 2009 from the OFT which IMHO this bunch are guilty of contravening so many areas its just not true.

 

As well as breaching so many areas of the 2009 OFT guidelines, I think the OFT are going to be very interested to learn that 1st Cr have tried and failed to submit as an exhibit in a court case the details of this thread. Mr T - watts and his bunch of merry men must have thought that the judge had just arrived from another planet if he thought he could get away with that one.

 

My second complaint will be going off very soon to the OFT and then once that has gone I will be taking my witness statement and all the other facts to the local constabulary for them to have a good look at. The protection from harrasment act has a lot to say about debt collectors making unreasonable demands and the TS are very interested to learn more about this too.

 

Oh and did I mention I have spoken to the fraud squad and they are very interested in how any company can fraudulently try to claim interest for a period when an account is clearly still in disupte. To be precise I have spoken to someone who works for the FS and he is advising me accordingly.

 

I dont think you came onto this thread until after this point but back in 2010 1st Cr stated that because they had posted two piles of photocopies that they reckon were my agreements this meant they they had complied with my request under CCA 1978 and they also then considered that there was no longer any dispute. Well where is the default notice I requested back in 2007 then 1st Cr?? Oh guess what Mr T - watts has already admitted they dont have a copy but they will confirm this by verbal means:)

 

Well they have now said that these are the documents they are going to rely on in this case. It was very interesting whern I said tpo the judge that these documents could have been anybody's for goodness sake my thirteen year old could have done a better job. Have a look at them Rebel - they are both nothing like each other!!!!

 

SO 1st Cr and I are very much still in dispute despite their pathetic attempt to state otherwise..

 

you couldnt make it up could you??? I am really looking forward to what my team come up with as the final Defence Statement - I think it will be interesting

 

I did tell them in 2007 that until they had complied in full with all of my requests for information so that a legitimate claim could be established and so we could ascertain whether or not there were any procedutral werrors that any legal action they instigated would be vigorously defended. And I have also told them on several occassions that because they had ignored my reasonable requests to not be contacted by phone or in writing until the had complied in full with my reqyuests for further info that any further attempt to extort money from me unlawfully would be taken as a wilful act of harrasment and so I am just totting up how many times they have written to me demanding full payment for an unproven alleged "debt" and also how many times they have called me against my express written request for them not to do this. Once I have the full amount of times then I shall be off to take this to the next level.

 

It appears to me that despite telling some people what the consequences of their actions willl be if they go ahead and do something you have already plainly asked them several times not to do that they just do not listen.

Edited December 5, 2011 by newman

[rebel11]

Hi newman

 

I must admit the OFT these days take no prisoners, they have teeth and use them. How times have changed, compared to a couple of years ago.

[newman]

Hi newman

 

I must admit the OFT these days take no prisoners, they have teeth and use them. How times have changed, compared to a couple of years ago.

 

Well that is good news to hear Rebel - My legal team and I are, as you can imagine very busy at the moment preparing all the evidence we will be submitting for our next statement to the court (may not be the defence statement) so I am sure they will adivse me further as to exactly what we need to say to the OFT to have the most effect.

 

I still cant believe these muppets tried to use this forum as evidence to work in their favour and If you want to have a good laugh then have a look at Mr T-watts's WS - it's HERE

 

And what was the ONLY thing the barrister could refer to last week - the fact that I mentione I had a very long defence prepared around the area of a default notice. Surely with all his legal training Me T-Watts knows that without being provided with copies of all the documentation the claimants are using in this case that would put me at a significant disadvantage and all I could then submit would be a partial defence albeit a very detailed one but a partial one none the less. Maybe Mr T-watts didnt cover that bit at law school and that is why he needed Mr Smith to go along instead of him. MAybe he is aconfused individual who is not confident to meet someone face to face and is only happy to fight with words on a page - mmmmm well thats a good question!!!

 

Or maybe 1st C think they can abuse the CPR process further and try to deliberately frustrate these proceedings even more than I think they already have. I do hope my opinion is not correct that this bunch of lovely people have kept refusing to disclose and then send a top barrister to a set aside hearing just so that they can avoid giving full dislosure. Come on Mr T-watts you know better than that

Edited December 5, 2011 by newman

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Newman are you going to press for ful diclosure as said above, good idea I think.

[newman]

Newman are you going to press for ful diclosure as said above, good idea I think.

 

Good evening Brig - Nice to hear from you. My advisors are guiding me in all areas and I will of course follow their advice but I think if you were a betting man you could make a very safe bet on the answer to that question

 

Watch this space and all will be revealed very soon I can assure you.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I shall watch with interest.

[newman]

I shall watch with interest.

 

Oh I think it is going to get interesting Brig.

 

You seem like a very intelligent man Brig as do all my other friends on here and I wonder if you can answer me a question or two?

 

In other cases that I have read about on this forum that have been successful it would appear that one of the main reasosns why they have been so successful is that many of the pre April 2007 agreements just did not comply to the CCA 1974 stipulations - you yourself have commented that you feel that 1st Cr may actually have the alleged agreement I was supposed to have entered into with Citi.

 

SO my first question is if 1st Cr do have a copy of an original agreement and it doesnt comply does this mean that they can not enforce the agreement and as such would not win this case?

And the second part to that foillows that if they dont have a true signed copy of the original agreement they they still cant enforce the agreement?

 

My next question relates to the actual POC they submitted - am I right in thinking that as there is still a formal dispute in place (as they have not complied fully with my original request in June 07 for a true copy of the agreement and a default notice) that they cannot claim interest for the period whilst it is in dispute?

 

and on the question of the interest they are trying to cliam am I also right in thinking that they cannot claim statutory interest pursuant to s 69 of the county court act?

 

I may have more questions but these were some that I am pondering on at the moment.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi yes you have read correctly, often the reason for non

compliance on the old debts is that the CCA no longer

exists or of course as many of these agreements were unenforceable

so it is often a refusal to produce said agreement that shows up

the possible weaknesses in a claimants case.

I believe you are correct on the interest front as well, other may of

course disagree.

I do think you MUST press for full disclosure.

 

Brig.

[newman]

Hi yes you have read correctly, often the reason for non compliance on the old debts is that the CCA no longer exists or of course as many of these agreements were unenforceable so it is often a refusal to produce said agreement that shows up the possible weaknesses in a claimants case. I believe you are correct on the interest front as well, other may of course disagree.

I do think you MUST press for full disclosure.

Brig.

 

Thanks very much Brig

 

I think that is the general consensus of opinion amongst the team I have advising me actually so again watch this space as I think we are still quite a long way from being able to submitt a full defence as the other side have not yet fully complied with all of their CPR obligations despite having a good salesman on their side last wednesday that in the opinion of some people I know they feel that perhaps ge did a very good job of possibly misleading the judge into not granting the unless order. Well it will be very interesting in the coming days to see if these opinions turn out to be true.

 

What is also very interesting brig is that I have been told that the likes of 1st Crud pay about 10p in the pound for "debt" or alleged debt that they buy and so if the account balance was corect on the account that they purchaseed from Citi - then this means that if it is true then they have paid no more than £670 for that account.

 

So if they did pay 10% of the balance (assuming the balance is correct and I am really not convinced of this as both Citi and 1st credit have made some glaring errors in the past when it comes to their financial accounting as M T - watts knows as he tried to claim more than £900 extra in his witness statement) then already it has cost them significantly more than this in the admin time they have spent trying to make potentially unlawful demands for the ful lpayment of an alleged debt that has not yet been lawfully established nor have we had the opportunity to establish that there are no procedural errors.

 

Well lets keep going and see what the judge has to say at the end of all of this.

 

I think the facts and the law will win out in this case at the end of the day.

[newman]

Well Happy New Year to all my friends at CAG - and also special greetings for the season to my friends in Surrey too.

 

I havent been able to post for a few weeks but I am back now.

 

I have just heard about the fantastic result that Pipster2797 has just had in THIS thread and guess what the main issue was - a really dodgy default notice that his creditor HSBC had sent him. That thread is a gem and the DN was so bad it is almost beyond belief.

 

I take huge encouragement from this result and it just goes to show that the law of the land must be adhered to even by bully boy companies that feel they can abuse protocols and just do what they feel like.

 

Well the DN is one of the critical things in my case too and 1st Cr have actiually admitted that they dont have one. Oh dear isnt that a shame - well to be actually precise Citi Financial never adhered to Pre Action Protocols in the first place before they unlawfully sold the account to 1st Credit. No LBA's were ever sent to me, no termination notices and the key document the Default Notice - none of these were ever sent before 1st credit paid what was no doubt a pittance for the account so I had no chance to rectify the situation before they terminated my account and registered a default notice on my credit file.

 

So well done Pipster is what I say and also well done to the amazing team of people on this forum that have helped him. AS he said he wouldnt have won without this help - so maybe there is hope for me yet.

Edited January 11, 2012 by newman

[DonkeyB]

Well Happy New Year to all my friends at CAG - and also special greetings for the season to my friends in Surrey too.

 

I havent been able to post for a few weeks but I am back now.

 

I have just heard about the fantastic result that Pipster2797 has just had in THIS thread and guess what the main issue was - a really dodgy default notice that his creditor HSBC had sent him. That thread is a gem and the DN was so bad it is almost beyond belief.

 

I take huge encouragement from this result and it just goes to show that the law of the land must be adhered to even by bully boy companies that feel they can abuse protocols and just do what they feel like.

 

Well the DN is one of the critical things in my case too and 1st Cr have actiually admitted that they dont have one. Oh dear isnt that a shame - well to be actually precise Citi Financial never adhered to Pre Action Protocols beforee they unlawfully sold the account they allege o 1st Credit. No LBA's wer sent to me, no termination notices and the key document the Default Notice - none of these were ever sent before 1st credit paid what was no doubt a pittance for the account.

 

So well done Pipster is what I say and also well done to the amazing team of people on this forum that have helped him. AS he said he wouldnt have won without this help - so maybe there is hope for me yet.

 

If you want to see the very rapid combined WS/skelly I did for the original hearing, let me know. You would also need to see their summary judgment WS for it to make sense. It’s not on the thread. There was a lot more to it than the default notice – he never actually signed any agreement, and they tried to rely on s127 not being applicable (ie. false use of Carey again). The rest was back up.

[Pipster2797]

Hi newman, just wanted to drop in. I'm going to have a good read of this thread tonight when the other half is watching the soaps

 

I'm going to post the WS and the skelly that DonkeyB knocked up for me this afternoon when Im at home.

 

Feel free to drop you a message and I will help you as best as I can but the truth is that the winning of my case is down to people like DonkeyB and CitizenB.

[DonkeyB]

Afternoon majic. How’s things down at 1st Credit?

[newman]

If you want to see the very rapid combined WS/skelly I did for the original hearing, let me know. You would also need to see their summary judgment WS for it to make sense. It’s not on the thread. There was a lot more to it than the default notice – he never actually signed any agreement, and they tried to rely on s127 not being applicable (ie. false use of Carey again). The rest was back up.

Thanks very much Donkey – yes please that would be very helpful. Anything that was used in Pipsters case would be extremely useful because there are actually a number of things in his case that are actually the same as my situation.

 

1) no signature – I genuinely will state if required that I never signed an agreement. Way back in the period from 01 to 04 I applied for a number of credit cards on line and a few of them were sent through without me ever having signed either an application form or an actual agreement. Now I really can’t remember as it is so long ago which cards came through like this and I definitely don’t have anywhere in my filing system any application form or agreements from Citi Financial so the S127 aspect of Pipsters case will be hugely relevant to my case to I think.

The feeling amongst my legal team is that perhaps 1st Cr actually do have a copy of the original agreement but because it is a pre April 21007 agreement then the likelihood is that it will be totally non compliant and they are sure this is why 1st Cr are so desperate to do anything they can to not disclose. Well at some point no doubt we shall see.

 

2) Conditional agreement. I too like Pipster have offered 1st Credit a conditional settlement back in July last year. I have stated categorically that I will repay in full anything I lawfully owe them providing they supply me proof of a contract, a signed invoice and also proof that they have the lawful right to try to extort any money from me. From the very start in June 07 I have stated categorically that I am happy to meet my financial obligations but until such a time as they give the proof I have requested I do not acknowledge any “debt” to them.

I sent them three letters stating that if they did not provide the requested items that we would be in a tacit agreement. So Estoppel by Acquiescence is now in force from where I am sitting yet they insist on keeping going.

 

3) Default Notice. It is so funny seeing the DN that HSBC sent to Pipster – what a joke. Well in my case Mr T. Watts has admitted in his witness statement that 1st Cr do not have a default notice. THis is hardly surprising as Citi never sent one despite 1st credit stating that they have said they did send one. Anyway apart from the fact that Citi never sent a DN (despite saying they have) they also clearly abused the system by blatently not adhering to pre action protocol. No LBA, no Termination notice and no DN were ever sent to me before they unlawfully terminated the account and so I had no chance whatsoever to rectify the situation.

 

I also have it on record that I informed then that I had called and spoken to a Citi manager Mr David Fell on 16-06-07 who admitted that he had no record on the file of any of the previous letters that had been sent out to me from CF informing me that a default was going to be registered or that the account was going to be “assigned” – which is their interpretation for selling unlawfully.

So a lot of parallels with Pipster’s case. I wonder if 1st Cr will follow their example.

 

Hey just had a thought Donkey can I call Mr Fell as a witness??

[newman]

Hi newman, just wanted to drop in. I'm going to have a good read of this thread tonight when the other half is watching the soaps

 

I'm going to post the WS and the skelly that DonkeyB knocked up for me this afternoon when Im at home.

 

Feel free to drop you a message and I will help you as best as I can but the truth is that the winning of my case is down to people like DonkeyB and CitizenB.

 

Thanks Pipster - reading my thread and missing the soaps - well make sure you have something strong to drink - a good black coffee - you will need it as it is almost beyond belief!!!!

 

Thanks for the offer and yes anything you have in the way of letters or other documentation then please send them to me - I will PM you now.