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1st Credit & LCS Battle - court papers received - help


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Maybe Majik had PHISH and chips...

PLEASE NOTE... I AM MOST SORRY BUT I HAVE VERY LIMITED AVAILABILITY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO EXTREME PRESSURE OF WORK - IF YOU REQUIRE URGENT HELP ON YOUR THREAD AND ARE GETTING NO RESPONSE PLEASE HIT THE TRIANGLE FOR SITE TEAM ASSISTANCE. ELSA XXX

 

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BB - Welcome back - long time no hear. I hope you are OK> you have been missed.

 

A lot has happened since you have been gone but the fight still goes on. We have a new friend Pipster2797 who has just had a great result - you might want to have a look at his thread HERE

 

His case is amazingly similar to mine and his adversaries have just given up so he is very pleased. He and I have had a very good chat off line and he has been hugely helpful by providing me with lots of tips and advice as well as giving me access to his documentation.

 

Not sure if you have heard what happened but on the 30th Nov I went to a set aside hearing at court as 1st cr have totally abused the CPR process by refusing to comply and have not answered 2 x CPR 18' & one 31:14 so I issued a N244 Unless order, unfortunately on the day I was on very bad form as I had spent 95 hours the previous week putting together a 27 page WS in response to a Mr T.Watts's WS. on top of that a friend of mine died the week before and the funeral was at mid day on the day of the hearing and so I really did a bad job of convincing the judge that the docs requested were needed in order to prepare my defence and he dismissed the order and awarded them £1244 costs. The judge did ask me if I wanted him to read MY WS and come back in an hour but I said no as that would have meant I couldnt get to the funeral!!!!! Stupid stupid mistake but I was stressed that morning and I really should have said yes or ask for an adjournent. Hey ho you live and learn.

 

ist Cr employed a top barrister a Mr Tobyu Riley Smith on the day and You also may be amazed to hear that the cheeky whatsits at 1st credit thought it was acceptable to submit another witness statement 2 days before the hearing which was a detailed explanation to the court about this forum and the fact that I have been posting and that Elsa, Brig & others have had the audactity to help me.

 

Well the judge slung that WS out instantly and try as hard as he could to get mine also thrown out Mr T Smith failed miserably and the judge allowed it.

 

So even though we lost round one I have 27 pages of WS full of facts to use at any time I see fit in my defence as well as 73 other pages of exhibits too.

 

So its all been happening here and its good to see you back.

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Sorry to hear you have had serous issues BB - I trust you are on the mend.

 

Thanks for the offer to assist - I will PM you anyway with some details I can give you because we know our friends in Surrey are reading this thread and we wouldnt want to give away any of our tactics now would we.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Newman

 

Hows things transpiring? Isn't your defence date looming? As you know Im a tad snowed under at the moment so will have little time to assist in the preparation of said defence.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Shout if you need any help, newman.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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I'm a bit concerned that he's gone so quiet. You ok Newman?

PLEASE NOTE... I AM MOST SORRY BUT I HAVE VERY LIMITED AVAILABILITY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO EXTREME PRESSURE OF WORK - IF YOU REQUIRE URGENT HELP ON YOUR THREAD AND ARE GETTING NO RESPONSE PLEASE HIT THE TRIANGLE FOR SITE TEAM ASSISTANCE. ELSA XXX

 

Please check out my BLOG for the quick guide to debt threats - it has all the info & letter template links you need to get started on your journey of TAKING CONTROL. :roll:

 

All opinions are my own based on research. I am not legally qualified, if in doubt please consult a legal expert.

Hope this has helped or made you smile. Keep your chin up, you're among friends now! Elsa xxx

Please click the *star* of any CAG member who has helped you .

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Hmmmm...

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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Too late to assist with any defence now must be going alone.

 

Andy

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Hi Everyone - huge apologies for not coming back to you but we have been very busy this end and there have been a lot of developments in the last few weeks so I wanted to get things dealt with and then let you all know whats been happening.

 

Firstly a huge thank you to everyone who has sent me messages and you know who you are in terms of the help we recieved towards the time when it came to submitting the defence so a massive thank you all round without naming anyone publicly - you all know who you are and we are so very grateful to you all. there is a lot more I could say about this but wont for obvious reasons

 

So a very brief update - I am only going to give the salient ponts as it is clear this bunch are trying to make things as difficult as they possibly can for us - both our friends in Surrey and the DJ - you will see what I mean as you read.

 

REQUEST FOR COSTS TO BE RSERVED

First point - we sent a request to the court by RD on the 19th Decemeber to ask if the costs could be reserved as we were not in a position to pay the order at this time and also because no legitimate claim has yet been established and this didnt get dealt with at all so in the new year we wrote to the court twice and eventually we got a response from the judge only a couple of days before the deadline to say that his decision stood as it was - basically pay £1,244 in full by the 27th!!! - So a very compassionate and understanding DJ there!!! So we were unable to do anything before that.

 

TRANSCRIPT

We also had sent a request to the court for the transcript on the 19th December and again this just simply didnt get dealt with at all and after much correspondence with the court the tape was finally sent to the transcript company and it was returned to us with only a few days to go before the deadline. I am not going to post the transcript up publicly but lets just say those members of the team who have had a look at this have been left in no doubt that the hearing on the 30th of Nov was basically a mini trial. After reading the TS I have to say I did a much better job than I thought I had but Mr Smith just did a better job of swaying the judge on the day - railroaded is one word that has been used to describe what happened that day.

 

REQUEST TO PAY £50 A MONTH FOR THE COSTS ORDER

Once we got that letter from the DJ saying his decision stood as it wasnt in the mind of the claimant we then wrote another letter on Friday to the court stating that We had no intention of evading our responsibilities in respect of the costs order but due to our financial circumstances we cant pay in full so can we pay £50 a month. THat was faxed at about 12:15 to both the court and 1st Cr.

 

We received a letter this morning from 1st Cr stating the following -

 

30th January

 

Dear Sir

 

We acknowledge receipt of your undated letter enclosing your defence in this matter. (I thnk i did forget to put the date on the letter that went to them with the defence and the request to pay £50 a month - the defence was dated and the letter to the court re the costs)

 

As to the costs awarded on 2 December 2011, any application to vary the terms of the order as to payment of thoise costs will be resisted

 

Yours faithfully

 

Legal Department

1st Credit

 

SO it is clear they are going to try to make this as difficult as they can for us. What a lovely bunch of people these are - well lets see what the court comes back with in terms of my request.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on this and just what we can do now??????

 

And Finally

 

THE DEFENCE

 

We finally managed to get the defence finsihed and it was served by fax in good time for the deadline of 16:00 hrs Friday 27th. We had about 2 hours to spare before the deadline last Friday.

 

I am very sorry to Donkey, Andy & Elsa as I didnt have this thread open at all in the last few weeks and so I didnt see your posts until just now. The team we are wroking with have helped us in a huge way and I am very sorry I didnt reply to your posts until now.

 

The defence we submitted is copied below and we will see what the response is to this.

 

Again guys any comments are obvioudly welcome but knowing our friends in Surrey are watching if you want to say anything private then send me an email or PM.

 

[b]DEFENCE[/b]

In the xxxxxx County Court

Claim Number xxxx

 

Between

 

1st Credit (Finance) Limited - Claimant

 

And

 

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx – Defendant

 

 

1. I, XXXXXX XXXXXX , of XXXXXX XXX XXX XXX X am the Defendant in this action and make the following statement in response to the Claimants claim dated 20th September 2011.

 

2. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, as they fail to comply with the Civil Procedure rules, in particular part 16 and practice direction 16, in particular paragraph 7.3.

 

2.1 Until such time that the Claimant is ordered to plead pursuant to CPR16 and attach documents on which their claim is based upon, I am unable to verify or plead a full and particularised defence.

 

2.2 The Claimant has not provided any assertions or legal cause of action in his Particulars of Claim; it is merely their version of the facts which are inconclusive and factually incorrect in places. It is averred the Claimant has failed to state on what basis this claim is made, has failed to provide the basis on which this is drawn or provide any proof. Due to this, except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I am unable to admit or deny any allegations in this defence.

 

2.3 The Defendant is unable to admit or deny that the Claimant is entitled to the sums claimed and the Claimant is put to strict proof in respect of the same.

 

3. The Claimant states in the Particulars of Claim, that the defendant was indebted to Citi Financial Europe Plc for credit advanced, however, no particulars have been given of how the purported debt arose or the amount claimed is calculated.

 

3.1 In particular no form of credit agreement is described, referred to, or disclosed despite numerous requests by the Defendant under Civil Procedure Rules. Similarly no indication is given that any of the steps required by Statute in respect of consumer agreements have been taken in order to establish cause of action.

 

4. For the avoidance of doubt, please note that, in response to a s.78 request in 2007, the Claimant supplied 2 sets of differing templated documents, both purporting to be reconstitutions of an original signed agreement. The Defendant was informed in a letter dated 19th July 2011 that the Claimant intends to rely on these documents in support of their claim. They have not clarified which of these differing documents is averred to be the true copy. (Copies of this documentation were supplied by the Claimant to the court as an exhibit dated 18th November 2011, marked “Exhibit CW2 To The Witness Statement of Colin Watts” for the hearing on the 30th November 2011.)

 

5. The Defendant pleads that the reconstructions relied upon are of no merit. The content of the two documents is generic and there is no evidence that either of them is a true representation of an original agreement that the Claimant claims the defendant entered into with the original creditor.

 

6. The Defendant therefore puts the Claimant to strict proof of the existence of the original document and the terms and conditions therein, and in evidence of this to disclose an original signed agreement relevant to this claim. Clearly, as the agreement in question predates April 2007 and being regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, production of this document is required for enforcement by the court. It was established in Carey vs HSBC Bank PLC that supply of reconstructed copies is only appropriate to satisfy information requests under s78, not proof purpose of an executed agreement for enforcement by a court.

 

7. Notwithstanding the above points, the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that any Default Notice sent to him was valid. Service of a Default Notice is a statutory requirement as laid out in sections 87, 88 and 89 Consumer Credit Act 1974. Section 87 makes it clear that a valid Default Notice must be served before a creditor can seek to terminate the agreement or demand repayment of sums due to a breach of the agreement.

 

7.1 The Defendant also notes that to be valid, a Default Notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and amendment Regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices)(Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237).

 

8. No Arrears Notices were ever issued by the Claimants to facilitate any interest charge and the Defendant contends that the Claimants should be aware that in these circumstances no interest is allowed as per section 86A-86D of the 1974 Act (sections 8-11 of the 2006 Act) and the Consumer Credit (Information Requirements and Duration of Licences and Charges) Regulations 2007 (regulations 19-26 and Schedule 3) retrospectively.

 

8.1 It is noted that the Claimant has included section 69 interest within the debt amount. It is averred that this has yet to decided by the court and at what rate and whether applicable to a debt covered by the CCA1974.

 

8.2 The Defendant contends that the Claimant should be aware they are not entitled to claim S69 interest by virtue of the County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order, 1991 (SI 1991 No. 1184 (L. 12)) in particular section 2(3)(a), which clearly prohibits such an award:

 

• 2(3) Interest shall not be payable under this Order where the relevant judgment - (a) is given in proceedings to recover money due under an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974;

 

8.3 The claimant has failed to particularise the amount claimed or state how much of the balance comprised unlawful charges and interest upon such charges.

 

9. In the above circumstances the facts and matters set out in the Particulars of Claim do not give rise to an entitlement to claim any of the relief now sought by the Claimant. The Claimant’s claim to be entitled to £8,898.97 including interest or to any other sum is denied.

 

9.1 The Claimants have not established any legal right to issue a claim or proven that any debt exists. It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant’s claim is entirely spurious and without merit. The Defendant requests the Courts permission to amend this defence at such time the Claimant be compelled to comply and disclose, separately or at standard disclosure, the valid and necessary documentation to support their claim.

 

Statement of Truth

 

I XXXXXX XXXXXX believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

Signed………………………………………………………………………..

 

Date Friday 27th January 2012[/b]

 

Well thats where we are at everyone and it will be very interesting to see what they come up with in response to this. There POC was diabolical really and so we couldnt submit anything else at this stage by way of a response to that POC. Despite trying three times with CPR requests and having the unless order refused we will see what they have when it comes to disclosure.

 

I am taking bets on what they actually do have in their possession as they have certainly done their level best to get out of revealing exactly what they do have in there possession.

 

Any comments guys please feel free.

Edited by newman
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OH Sorry forgot to say we also sent a SAR request to Citi in December and unbelievably they responded within the 40 day deadline which then enabled us to structure our defence in the way it was. This was sent to us just a few days before the deadline to have the defence in which is why we were unable to submit the defence any earlier

 

I understand this was very unusual for Citi to actually respond at all let alone within the 40 day deadline. This has produced some very interesting results which are absolutely fantastic for us and when they are eventually revealed will be guaranteed to upset a certain company in Surrey - I won't got into details now but lets just say there is some very concrete evidence that Citi acted in a very inapropriate and naughty (if not unlawful) way and even more evidence to prove that 1st C also have acted, well lets just say improperly - being polite at this stage.

 

There is also some concrete proof that 1st Cr wont be able to dispute in any way at all. - I have put everything in front of a very good legal team and they re busy as we speak working on this as some of what was produced is very bad news fro 1st Cr thats for sure :) If it was looking impossible before the SAR for 1st cr to prove legitimate claim then what has been sent through just gives even more strength to our case.

 

I have no idea why Citi responded within the deadline or with the huge amount of details they sent through but its very good that they did and my legal team are advising me accordingly.

 

Cant say nay more at this stage but please feel free to comment accordingly or ask questions or send me a PM

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Hi Newman

I don't know if this will be helpful to you or not, but I note you mention LCS solicitors in the heading; please note that 1st Credit Ltd and it's "in house" solicitor (? R D Marr) has from 31 December 2011 ceased to use the style of stationary or description "LCS solicitors"

The Solicitors regulatory authority have confirmed that LCS solicitors is not regulated by them!

I would say that if they are continuing to pretend that LCS solicitors exist not only are they attempting to create an imbalance between the parties, but this must in some way be fraudulent.... Just thought you'd like a little bit of nice to know information.

Knowledge is power :-)

Kind regards

Gbarbm

Gbarbm

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Hi Newman

I don't know if this will be helpful to you or not, but I note you mention LCS solicitors in the heading; please note that 1st Credit Ltd and it's "in house" solicitor (? R D Marr) has from 31 December 2011 ceased to use the style of stationary or description "LCS solicitors"

The Solicitors regulatory authority have confirmed that LCS solicitors is not regulated by them!

I would say that if they are continuing to pretend that LCS solicitors exist not only are they attempting to create an imbalance between the parties, but this must in some way be fraudulent.... Just thought you'd like a little bit of nice to know information.

Knowledge is power :-)

Kind regards

Gbarbm

 

Thanks Gbarbm - sorry forgot to give that update we were sent a change of solicitor form sometime in December notifying us that 1st cr were taking this back in house.

 

Thanks very much for the update on their status - they just said we are not using the "trading Style of LCS" so LCS were just a mickey mouse bunch anyway.

 

And interstingly MR T.Watts is no longer the legal counsel. He is now the legal manager as it was his name on the change of solicitor form. Is this a demotion I wonder????

Edited by newman
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The good ole embarrassed defence, works every time...

 

Hi Boo - long time no speak - hope all is well with you.

 

Well what else could we say? - the POC was garbage and so we were left with no choice really :)

 

And let's see how they respond. The defence is just full of facts - thats it no more no less

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Yes the LCS farce to 1st credit legal dept,

I wonder if it's still staffed by 1 paralegal

and a principal solicitor who is a bit of a mystery,

same set up new title.

With a POC like that one wonders why they bother,

nothing to go on even less to proceed, dont

know why they dont just give up.

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Yes the LCS farce to 1st credit legal dept, I wonder if it's still staffed by 1 paralegal and a principal solicitor who is a bit of a mystery, same set up new title. With a POC like that one wonders why they bother,

nothing to go on even less to proceed, dont know why they dont just give up.

 

Hi Brig - also long time no speak - hope all is well with you.

 

Well I am sure you are right about the whole legal department and in fact I called 1st Cr on Friday afternoon after 4.00pm to see if the fax had been received and the number for the legal dept went to voice mail four times!!! So no one was there and so I called another 1st Credit number and a very nice young man answered the phone and his very words were - "oh I was down there about an hour ago and it was deserted there was absolutely no one there". So it looks like Mr T.Watts took an early finish on Friday. I did wonder if "down there" meant the basement but a friend of mine thought it was the dungeon :) :) I had to laugh at that. Maybe they dont let the "legal department" see the light of day and they need their vitamin D top up so they take a half day on a Friday to see the sun!!!

 

WRT to the POC again you are right - it is diabolical - and as you have seen we were railroaded by a slick barrister at the set aside hearing - it was deplorable - a 15 min hearing turned into a total grilling and I really felt that it was me on trial instead of (as some people have commented) this bunch of low lifes having to account for the fact that they have totally abused the CPR process and be as obstructive as possible.

 

They have not acted ethically, morally or in any other way that normal humans would since the start of this whole process and at the end of the day all I have ever asked of them is to prove they have the legal right to demand money from me. Well so far they have done everything they can to resist doing just that and they know they will have to play by the rules and plead their POC properly and present the original agreement on which their claim is based. And it is going to be very interesting to see what they have to say about the rest of the facts in the defence.

 

So Brig I am sure your question is one that a lot of people are asking - in fact someone asked me just today and I quote "why the heck do **** bag companies that employ low life good for nothings insist on thinking they can act above the law and treat decent people in this way"? that is the polite version but its a very valid question and actually one I have been asked a number of times by a few people and I havent yet been able to figure out an adequate answer that can be published on a public forum - and so it remains to be anwered - I have my opinions on this and maybe this is something others on here can answer.

 

Oh look I see Mr Majic is back on here - welcome Majic - come on you seem to have the knowledge oif this and I am sure you can contribute so please do instead of just stalking us on this thread - join in :) :)

 

Anyone else got any comments on this I would value your thoughts or advice.

Edited by newman
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And further to Gbarbm's post above about lCS / 1st Credit legal dept it is very interesting to note that the phone number and fax No for 1st Cr legal dept are exactly the same as for LCS solicitors who are no longer around!!!

 

Many of my friends have the impression that this bunch are almost beyond belief and the over riding comments that are repeatable are how unbeliveably unprofessional, unethical and immoral they seem to be. Well I have to admit that it does seem that somethings in this life have to be seen to be believed.

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Just an aside Newman if they do attempt to resist your variation re costs then you do have options if they try to enforce the costs, you could make an immediate application for injunctive relief to prevent them from doing so and will seek the costs of this application from them.

 

Just an option to consider.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Just an aside Newman if they do attempt to resist your variation re costs then you do have options if they try to enforce the costs, you could make an immediate application for injunctive relief to prevent them from doing so and will seek the costs of this application from them.

 

Just an option to consider.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy - that is very interesting to know thank you - I certainly didnt know that - are you able to expand on this a bit or if its easeir then send me a PM please - this might help a lot of other people in the same boat.

 

How do I go about doing that if they do start to get nasty about this?

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Happy to expand tomorrow getting late and been a long day.Im sure in my absence Mr T Watts or Majic will expand.( or perhaps not)!!!

 

Catch you tomorrow Newman.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Happy to expand tomorrow getting late and been a long day.Im sure in my absence Mr T Watts or Majic will expand.( or perhaps not)!!!

 

Catch you tomorrow Newman.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Absolutely Andy - I didnt realise how late it was - agreed its time to sleep..

 

Maybe Majic can post up on this matter - I woud love to hear from him as he seems to just lilke stalking and not joining in. If this thread was a playground would he be the creepy guy in the long mac sitting on the bench I wonder :)

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I know I haven't been active on this thread for personal reasons, but I can, at least now offer support... *hugs to everyone that has been here for you *

"To love unconditionally is the greatest gift, laughter is a close second" .To give your time to help others after being helped here is the best way to show your appreciation to your fellow CAG members.

 

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I know I haven't been active on this thread for personal reasons, but I can, at least now offer support... *hugs to everyone that has been here for you *

 

Morning BB - Thank you so much for your thoughts - they are very much appreciated and you have been missed I am sure as dyou have made some extremely vakuable contributions in the past from what I have read. I trust all is well at your end yes I totally agree that huge hugs alll rould are the very least that is needed for everyone who has been helping me. The team are amazing and all deserve medals.

 

THank goodness for all the amazing people on this and other forums on the internet that do so much good work to keep sharks and vagabond companies at bay by working relentlessley to stop the underhand unlawful practices that are so prevelant in our society. I am much better equipped now than I ever was before and the knowledge I have gained will I am sure be put to good use to help others when this is all over.

 

Many people have said to me that 1st credit must be fairly desperate and not have a lot of morals if they can stoop to the dirty tactic of trying to enter in court the fact that this forum exists to help people who need it and my friends really dont have anything good to say abou the likes of Mr T. Watts. I wonder what Mr T.Watts thought he could achieve by submitting a few screen shots of this thread. Well they tried and faied miserably with that approach and I wonder what they will do next - maybe they will put a report in about how often I shave!!!

 

So BB welcome back and please do feel free to offer any asistance you feel may be helpful. I totally forgot that I had said I was going to PM you so I will do that now.

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HI BB

 

I have just been reading the thread you started HERE about CCA, DCAs and the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive . VEry intersting it was the same bunch of lovely people that I am dealing with now that prompted your action oin that thread.

 

I am going to read all of this and I am certain that in my case 1st Credit have acted unlawfully on several occassions. They have blatently done everything they can to avoid their legal responsibilites in respect of adhering to CPR's - 2 x CPR 18's and one COR 31:14 blatently refused to answer these as well as the campaign of harrasment I was subjected to both in writing and by Connaughts on the phone after sending me two piles of photocopies that they claim are true recons of an original agreement. So the fact in my case is that although the original CCA request was in 2007 they are still in default of not complying with the request and have done everything they can to frustrate the process by refusing to present the original agreement. IF they are so confiednt of being able to win why have they not just supplied the agreement - is it perhaps that they dont actually have it I wonder or do tey have it and its totally nono compliant or are they hoping to just bamboozle a judge and try to get a crafty win?

 

Getting the defence submitted was the top priority but now I am able to turn my attention to the outstanding matter of reporting this bunch to the relevant authorities for the way they have been acting, particularly the OFT for the many breaches of their latest guidance released in OCtober last year.

 

So if you have any advice to offer in this respect I would be very grateful if you could send it my way. You have my email add now or you can PM me here or just post up on this thread if you feel others may benefit too..

 

THanks again BB

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