Urgent help needed with County court defence

[Rom]

Hi, I'm new to the CAG and am looking for help and advice, sorry for the short timescales.

I have been trawling through other posts and there r some really good people on here but info is confusing, so help! Sorry if I waffle, just want to give all info.

 

Basically, I had a credit card for years with GE capital and bout 2 yrs ago I lost my job and entered into a repayment agreement with company called CL Finance, who were acting as agents for GE. I agreed to pay back in installments at £20 pm. I provided them with P45 etc, and I have not been claiming any benefits whatsoever (complicated issue)

I had been paying regulary, with some late payments here and there for 2 yrs, when, as i had to go away for a few weeks in june, I ended up missing a payment and they sent me a county court claim form.

I made a payment to them which they accepted and got the form the day after.

I spoke to them on phone and they said I was in breach of agreement, they sent default notices (which I couldn't read as i was away) and they were not prepared to listen.

The claim is from Northampton, which I believe is a favourite for cc companies.

They state that I am in breach of credit agreement and defaulted. The claim is for £2571. They did not attach any paperwork with the claim.

I also got a letter from their solicitors.

The date of claim is 27th July 2010, as i read it I have 5 days from then as service and then 14 days to respond.

I sent AOS via internet stating that I wish to defend all of the claim on 12th August and having read some threads I sent I CPR 31.14 request to the solicitors, guranteed deliv on 17th August.

Now I am unsure of what to do next. What do I put in for defence and by what date.

[spamheed]

from the date of claim allow 5 days, then 14 days to defend, however if you acknowledge service online that becomes 28 days (= 33 days from date of service)

 

Date of service = 27 July + 5 days = 2nd August + 28 days = 30th August, you need to have your defence in for Monday coming (Bank Holiday Monday)

 

Have they actually sent you a copy of the agreement?

what paperwork have they actually sent you?

Have you ever sent them a CCA request? (request for a copy of the agreement)

 

Can you possibly type up the Particulars of claim in full from the claim form

[saintly_1]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

I have moved this to the Legal Issues forum

 

saintly

[Rom]

from the date of claim allow 5 days, then 14 days to defend, however if you acknowledge service online that becomes 28 days (= 33 days from date of service)

 

Date of service = 27 July + 5 days = 2nd August + 28 days = 30th August, you need to have your defence in for Monday coming (Bank Holiday Monday)

 

Have they actually sent you a copy of the agreement?

what paperwork have they actually sent you?

Have you ever sent them a CCA request? (request for a copy of the agreement)

 

Can you possibly type up the Particulars of claim in full from the claim form

 

Thanks for the reply.

They have never sent me a copy of the agreement, I did'nt get any paperwork with the actual claim, but I was sent default notices and letter about missing payment in June and July 2010, (but I was away)

I have never sent them a request for CCA.

 

Particulars of claim as follows:

 

"The Claimant's claim is for the sum of 2521.58 being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant under a regulated credit agreement made in writing under reference xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

The Defendent has failed to make paymet in accordance with the terms of the agreement and a default notice has been served upon the Defendant pursuant to Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Claimant claims the sum of 2521.58"

 

Also, they have added on Court fee of £75 and Solicitors costs of £80, total £2676.58. Cheeky buggers!!!

[foolishgirl]

Firstly who is named as the Claimant? Is it GE or CL?

If it is the latter, were you ever sent a Notice of Assignment?

 

Can you also post copies of the DNs they sent (minus your personal details) please?

 

Did they send you a LBA before the issue of the claim?

 

Re. your defence - as you are now getting short on time, I suggest you enter a short 'embarrassed' defence & get off a request under CPR31.14 asap for the agreement.

You also need to send a SAR request to them (cost £10.00) specifically requesting your agreement, the NOA & your statements from the commencement of the account with GE.

 

You will find a template for the SAR here:

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca

 

Template for your CPR31.14 request:

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of the agreement.

 

You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document I have requested is copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file an amended defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

Send both letters Rec. Delivery, do not sign (print or use dig. sig) & send PO for the SAR.

 

If you can post up the DN, I may be able to help with your defence.

 

BTW they are entitled to add court fees etc. to the claim.

[citizenB]

Just followed your link from another thread. See you are in good hands with foolishgirl

[Rom]

Thanks for helping.

 

Firstly, the claimant is CL Finance.

 

COuld you clarify lba? I will post up the DNs, I have also sent off a CPR 31.14 requestt, guranteed nxt day deliv, (not heard anything yet) and should I still send SAR. I did not sign the CPR request, just typed my name.

 

Also, I have read on one of the other threads that someone had some success with something similar, as they had a store card which was changed to a credit card. This is same for me.

 

I am not sure what to put in for the embarassed defence, I have been looking at many threads and everyone has a different angle.

 

Have a look at the letters and let me know.

 

I was thinking of sending the defence on Thurs, with nxt day deliv as monday is bank hol, what do you think.

[Rom]

[Rom]

..

[Rom]

They were all in order but now seemed mixed up. If you need any more info let me know.

 

Many thanks.

[Rom]

http://s971.photobucket.com/albums/ae192/rom20101/

 

The letters are better here!

[MONTY]

http://s971.photobucket.com/albums/ae192/rom20101/

 

The letters are better here!

 

If they do not respond to your CPR 31.14 request send a 31.15

 

CPR 31.15 Request

 

 

Further to the above case number, I have sought copies of the original documents that you mention in your POC, namely, 1)The Agreement , 2) Default Notice. Despite my requests under CPR 31.14 dated xx xxxx 2010, you have failed to supply these documents.

 

In an attempt to again resolve this issue, I now require sight of the original executed agreement, as I am allowed to do under CPR 31.15.

 

You will note that under this rule, you must allow me inspection or the original document within 7 days of the date of this letter..

 

I look forward to your urgent response.

 

Yours faithfully

[MONTY]

If they do not respond to your CPR 31.14 request send a 31.15

 

CPR 31.15 Request

 

 

Further to the above case number, I have sought copies of the original documents that you mention in your POC, namely, 1)The Agreement , 2) Default Notice. Despite my requests under CPR 31.14 dated xx xxxx 2010, you have failed to supply these documents.

 

In an attempt to again resolve this issue, I now require sight of the original executed agreement, as I am allowed to do under CPR 31.15.

 

You will note that under this rule, you must allow me inspection or the original document within 7 days of the date of this letter..

 

I look forward to your urgent response.

 

Yours faithfully

 

At the same time consider sending this to the Northampton CC

 

PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Reference: CL Finance-v-xxxx xxxxxxxx Claim No. xxxxxxxx

 

I have been attempting to obtain information from the claimants solicitors. To date they have ignored my CPR31.14 request.

 

In an attempt to resolve this matter I have today sent them the attached CPR31.15 request.

 

For information, please also find enclosed my letters to the claimant’s solicitors of xxth xxxx 2010 (CPR requests).

 

Yours faithfully,

[foolishgirl]

 

COuld you clarify lba? I will post up the DNs, I have also sent off a CPR 31.14 requestt, guranteed nxt day deliv, (not heard anything yet) and should I still send SAR. I did not sign the CPR request, just typed my name.

 

LBA - Letter Before Action. IMO the letter dated 15 June on photobucket - it should actually tell you that unless you pay up by xxx legal action will be taken.

 

Yes, you DEFINITELY need to send a SAR. Additionally specify Notice of Assignment, Statements since date of commencement of account detailing interest & any charges that may have been applied to your account. These are reclaimable so you need to know how much.

 

The DN you have posted could be valid provided that the bit crossed out shows the arrears & the total balance. I note that in the text they have referred to a sum of £2509.58. Was this arrears or total balance? If the latter, the DN is invalid - they are only permitted to claim arrears on a DN. 'Course it could be that your total balance is arrears, would depend on the time the account has lapsed & you need to check this one out.

Also, I have read on one of the other threads that someone had some success with something similar, as they had a store card which was changed to a credit card. This is same for me.

 

They can't convert a store card to credit card without a new agreement, they are different. However you haven't got a copy agreement yet so wait & see what is on it first. This point can be brought out in your defence/WS in due course.

 

I am not sure what to put in for the embarassed defence, I have been looking at many threads and everyone has a different angle.

 

I'll drop back later & help you with this.

 

I was thinking of sending the defence on Thurs, with nxt day deliv as monday is bank hol, what do you think.

 

It's fine as long as it gets there Sat.

 

 

If they do not respond to your CPR 31.14 request send a 31.15

 

 

I agree with Monty. When did you send your CPR31.14 request & did you give them a time limit in it?

[Rom]

Many thanks, ok, from the letters it seems that sometimes they say balance and sometimes arrears. As far as I can remember, this was the total balance left on the credit card when I got into difficulty, then they agreed to the £20pm.

 

I will send the CPR 31.15 and a sar request. I want to send them today, but do I send both to the solicitor or cl finance?

 

I sent the CPR 31.14 on 18th August, royal mail spec nxt day deliv. I will post it on here, but just noticed, stupidly I haven't put a date on it, really annoyed with myself, but guess thats why were are amatures.

 

Letter sent on 18th AUgust

Howard Cohen & Co Solicitors

PO Box 110

Cleckheaton

West Yorkshire

BD19 4XT

Dear Sir,

 

Re: CL FINANCE LIMITED v xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - Case No:xxxxxxxx

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On 27th July 2010 I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton county court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of the documents mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the originals should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the assignment*

 

3 the default notice*

 

4 the termination notice*

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any versions to include an obligation to recover and preserve such versions which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

 

Yours faithfully

xxxxxxxxxxxx

my address

[Rom]

ok, in the letters i'm sending to the court and the CPR 31.15 request, I am going to change the wordings slightly, because of my error.

 

"Further to the above case number, I have sought copies of the original documents that you mention in your POC, namely, 1)The Agreement , 2) Default Notice. Despite my requests under CPR 31.14 sent 18th August 2010, you have failed to supply these documents.

 

In an attempt to again resolve this issue, I now require sight of the original executed agreement, as I am allowed to do under CPR 31.15.

 

You will note that under this rule, you must allow me inspection or the original document within 7 days of the date of this letter..

 

I look forward to your urgent response.

 

Yours faithfully "

 

 

Court Letter

 

"

Northampton County Court

County Court Bulk Centre

4th Floor St Katharine’s House

21-27 St Katharine’s Street

Northampton

NN1 2LH

24th August 2010

PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Reference: CL Finance-v-xxxxxxxxxx Claim No.xxxxxxxx

 

I have been attempting to obtain information from the claimants solicitors. To date they have ignored my CPR31.14 request.

 

In an attempt to resolve this matter I have today sent them the attached CPR31.15 request.

 

For information, please also find enclosed my letters to the claimant’s solicitors sent 18th August 2010 (CPR requests).

 

Yours faithfully,

xxxxxxxxxxxxx "

Let me know if the changes are ok. I'll send them by end of post today. Thanks

[Rom]

Letter to Cohens

 

 

Howard Cohen & Co Solicitors

PO Box 110

Cleckheaton

West Yorkshire

BD19 4XT

 

 

24th August 2010

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: CL FINANCE LIMITED v xxxxxxxxxxxx - Case No: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

CPR 31.15 Request

 

 

Further to the above case number, I have sought copies of the original documents that you mention in your Particulars of Claim, namely, 1)The Agreement , 2) Default Notice. Despite my requests under CPR 31.14 sent 18th August 2010, you have failed to supply these documents.

 

In an attempt to again resolve this issue, I now require sight of the original executed agreement, as I am allowed to do under CPR 31.15.

 

You will note that under this rule, you must allow me inspection or the original document within 7 days of the date of this letter.

 

I look forward to your urgent response.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

 

my address

Again, have made that slight change, let me know if these are ok to send.

[Rom]

Sorry to be a constant pain, when these guys get you panicked.... where can I find the template or letter for SAR?

 

I found a template on this site but it says register and won't let me etc.

 

Thanks

[Rom]

Is this ok to send for SAR? Am I putting in the acc no? And I assume I send it to CL Finance, not the solicitors.

 

DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST

 

Date: xx:xx:xxxx

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Name xxxxxxxxxxxx

Account No’sXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

 

I understand that you currently hold details of my personal and financial information within your internal record systems with regard to personal loan accounts and credit cards accounts

 

I would be grateful if you would provide the following for ALL accounts or associated accounts I hold or have held with your organisation:

1. Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any documents you hold in support of the same.
   
2. A complete list of all transactions or statements relating to ALL of my Loan Accounts with your organisation.
   
3. Copies of all documents which include any of my personal information including copies of any contacts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information.
   
4. Full copies or transcripts of any correspondence in postal, email or any other format which you have entered into with any individual, organization or third party which contains my personal or financial, or which pertains to me.
   
5. Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a declaration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.
   
6. Full hard copy print outs of my personal or financial information, held in a digital, magnetic or any other format which is held in any archives, backups or other storage devices / locations.
   
7. Underwriting sheet or other such document recording any commission (or other) payment made to an intermediary or packager, and/or payment/commission from the insurer in relation to my account.
   

Where you have used abbreviations and/or codes, I would request that an accompanying sheet be provided so as to translate these abbreviations and/or codes and their meanings, I also request an accompanying appendices of the documents included and reference to the purpose or meaning to those documents.

 

I request that you provide all the information requested above, even though you may consider that it falls outside Data Protection.

 

I reserve the right to refer to the contents of this letter if an application for pre-action discovery is necessary relating to any of the documents requested herein.

 

I enclose a cheque in the sum of £10 to cover your fee.

 

IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO DEAL WITH THIS REQUEST, YOU SHOULD IMMEDIALTELY FORWARD IT TO THE PERSON WITHIN YOUR ORGANISATION RESPONSIBLE FOR DATA PROTECTION.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in the first instance of receipt.

 

Your Faithfully.

 

.................................................. .................................................. .......................

[foolishgirl]

Don't panic Rom!!

 

You sent your CPR31.14 on 18 August, giving them 7 days to respond from date of receipt. By my reckoning that date is not yet up so no point in sending CPR31.15 yet.

 

Your SAR is fine, the CAG template is here (as mentioned in Post 5):

http://www.consumerforums.com/resour...est-debt-a-dca

 

The SAR goes to CL - definitely not HC.

[foolishgirl]

Here is your embarrassed defence, Rom. You can do it online. If you are posting, send it Spec. Del. Make sure your signature goes through the lines (to avoid copying & pasting by anyone that shouldn't)

 

1. I, xxxx of xxxxx make this statement as my defence to the claim brought by CL Finance

 

2. The claimants particulars of claim are vague and fail to disclose any cause of action, they appear to be an abuse of the process in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system

 

3. No documents supporting the claims in the particulars have been offered and despite a request to the claimant for further information via CPR 31.14 dated xx/xx/xxxx sent by recorded delivery none has been forthcoming and as a result I cannot plead in defence to the claim

 

4. Without clarification of the claimants claim, the defendant is extremely disadvantaged and the claimants claim appears without merit, the defendant asks to be allowed to submit a fully particularised defence should the claimant provide copies of the original documents he will rely upon.

 

5. Further to the above, the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarrassed.

 

Statement of Truth

 

I believe the above statement to be true and factual

Signed

 

Dated

 

BTW, there seems to be a 'permanent' guest on this thread - maybe HC looking in? Be careful what you post.

[bazaar]

Do you know when they received the CPR 31.14? Even though you didnt date it, you sent it on 18th Aug, they signed for ( Or received it on ) ?

So lets just say they got it on Friday 20th August. the 7 days wont be up until bank holiday weekend.

So by Tuesday Night 31st, you can send the CPR 31.15 off. get the embarrassed defence in over the next 2 days.

[Rom]

Thanks, you are a star.

 

So I won't send in the CPR 31.15 or letter to court just yet. The letter was signed for on 19th so that is till 25th by my reckoning.

 

I will send it then if I get nothing.

[Rom]

thanks for this, I will do it online by fri. Also, having read some other defences, do I need to put in the bit about being able to change the defence if needed and having this discontinued if evidence is not provided. Some people really have long winded defences.

[bazaar]

You should always write your defence as best suits you, you are a LIP after all, this way, you'll exactly what youve written and why.

Theres no harm in reading other peoples defences and taking the best bits etc.

By all means, put in the amended defence request, and a statement that if they fail to provide the required evidence respectfully ask the court to dismiss the claim