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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Natwest Loan - to Wescot now Robinson Way


tonixx
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A door step collection :eek::rolleyes:

 

Yes Mr White, Mr Brown or maybe Mr Green will send you his calling card.

 

But don't rush out to get the earl gray and custard creams, as he never turns up. Mr Greens first call of the day is usually in John o Groats at 9am, his next is in Plymouth a 9.15am, so as they are not issued with time machines as a company vehicle he finds it difficult to keep to his schedule. LOL

 

Just more intimidating drivel to get you to phone them.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Little recap, Natwest loan, passed to Wescot, CCA'd, natwest replied with 'we want your signature' - ignored, as advised on here - buying time ? , Dispute letter sent, Wescot replied with 'No more action will be taken on your account til resolved'

 

Now, today recieved this letter, again asking for the signature.

 

img010.jpg

 

Should I reply with the

 

Dear Sirs,

 

RE Account NO XXXXXXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/2010 the contents of which are noted

In your letter you make reference to requiring my specimen signature before you comply. I draw

your attention to the fact that the Consumer Credit Act 1974 does not require that i supply you

a copy of my signature before you comply with my S77/78** request.

 

If it is for Data Protection purposes then i can happily supply you with documentation to

substantiate my identity to you.

 

However please note that to date you have happily sent statements and correspondence

containing extensive sensitive private information to my address. I have to ask if you are

concerned that you are corresponding with the correct person why has it taken so long to

raise this?

 

As you are aware, disclosing data without adequate checks of identity is contrary to the

7th principal of data protection, listed in schedule 1 of the Data protection Act 1998:

 

7. Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised

or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or

damage to, personal data.

 

My request for a true copy of my credit agreement under section 77/78** was made on

xx/xx/2010 and the 12 working days for your compliance expire on xx/xx/2010. I note that

there is no provision that removes the requirements of the act to provide this information on

time, even if you are unsure of my identity.

 

I look forward to receiving the documentation requested

 

Regards

 

Print

 

Or continue to ignore?

 

Thanks. :)

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Someone posted this info which you may like to make use of. ;)

Select committee on Trade and Industry minutes of evidence

(1996 Legislative working party)

 

2. The working party looked at the legal issues regarding the terms document, writing, signature, instrument, and records of transactions and originality. The Government's current proposed legislation focuses particularly upon the issue of signature. The working party considered the leading case in English law on signature methods, Goodman -v- J Eban Limited. That decision established that:

 

2.1 mechanical signatures using rubber stamps, printing or typewriting were valid in english law;

2.2 a signature can be by a mark rather than a name as long as evidence can be given to indentify the placer of the mark and the intention to sign; and

2.3 words other than a name can amount to a signature if the necessary intention to sign can be proven

 

Now although this working party was looking into the Electronics Commerce Bill it points to . .

 

Goodman v J Eban Ltd (1954)

 

A solicitor signed a solicitors bill with a rubber stamp which contained the name of the law firm. In the judgment it was determined that the rubber stamp was a valid signature, even theough the Solicitors Act of 1932 required a solicitors bill to be signed; it was established that it is enough to demonstrate that the rubber stamp was affixed by the solicitor with the intention to sign the solicitor's bill.

 

So now taking the highlights above I go to:

 

Interpretations act 1978

 

Schedule 1

 

1973 c.37.

 

"Writing" includes typing, lithograpgy, photography or other modes of representing or reproducing words in a visible form and expressions refering to writing can be construed accordingly

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  • 5 weeks later...

Its resolved again as far as they are concerned!

 

"We refer to your recent communication. Having contacted our client they have advised under the guidelines they have been given regarding section 77 requests, the bank requires a specimen signature from the customer in order for them to comply with your request."

 

What next guys? Are they right, or is this bull.....?

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S77/78 CCA 1974 makes no mention about the requirement for a signature, and it makes no provision for the information to be witheld because of this or anything else. They cannot make their own amendments to Acts of Parliament just because they feel like it. In any case, there is no mention of ascertaining the identity of the person requesting the info. After all, they were sure enough it was you when they started Collection action.

I am a lawyer, but I am an academic lawyer. I do not practice as a barrister or solicitor. You should consult a practising Solicitor BEFORE taking any Court or other action

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I’m in the same boat regarding PratWest now insisting on a sig.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/251499-help-required-natwest-overdraft.html#post2844594

 

They had no problem sending extensive private & personal info in response to all the other digitally signed letters, or complying with our digitally signed CCA request by sending the usual tosh and saying they don’t have to include the signature or signature box to satisfy our CCA request. However, since sending them a SAR they’ve now gone all shy and returned our request & fee until we prove who we are by providing a sig!

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I’m in the same boat regarding PratWest now insisting on a sig.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/251499-help-required-natwest-overdraft.html#post2844594

 

They had no problem sending extensive private & personal info in response to all the other digitally signed letters, or complying with our digitally signed CCA request by sending the usual tosh and saying they don’t have to include the signature or signature box to satisfy our CCA request. However, since sending them a SAR they’ve now gone all shy and returned our request & fee until we prove who we are by providing a sig!

 

Tell them you will pick up the documentation at your local branch where you will provide suitable identification, warn them that if they don't resolve this situation you will be complaining to the ico.

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  • 2 months later...

6yrs ago or so, took out a loan with Natwest, one thing or another, got behind with payments. TBH forgot about it til about a year ago, and found out they was after their payments.

 

It was passed to Wescot, I sent them the CCA request, they defaulted on it, this was 20th January this year. Weve been going backwards and forwards, Sending letters to Wescot, them forwarding to Natwest, Natwest saying they need my signature, me saying they dont, and its still in dispute.

 

On Friday, we got a letter from Robinsons way who now have the debt.

 

Am I right in thinking Wescot cannot pass the debt, as its in dispute with them?

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Send them the account in dispute letter. That should get them to pass it back.

 

As you said the loan was 6 years ago, when was the last time you paid anything on it? Might be close on being Statute Barred if it's almost 6 years since you last made a payment.

These are video links to show how I deal with Debt Collectors.

 

Fly fishing for C.A.R.S

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zPtzK8FqE6k&feature=related

 

Frederickson International don't accept my card type

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eiZBULlWW6Q&feature=related

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Yes you are right,they should not but they do.

Requesting account info,is within itself though not enough for consideration of a dispute-you need to spell out to them in writing WHY you regard the account as in dispute.

It looks like there are breaches here in OFT DC guidelines,which you should be pointing out.

Both Wescot and RW are members of the CSA and look to be breaching those codes of practice too.

did you check your credit files recently to see what is recorded there ?

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Send them the account in dispute letter. That should get them to pass it back.

 

As you said the loan was 6 years ago, when was the last time you paid anything on it? Might be close on being Statute Barred if it's almost 6 years since you last made a payment.

 

I cannot remember the exact date, id imagine its well over 4yrs ago.

 

Would the SAR (?) request tell me the last payment on the account? I will request this next - i think - as it does have alot of charges on the account and will buy time, but whether or not they'll send it, when they refuse the CCA because of the lack of signature, is another thing.

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No need for a SAR at the moment

 

No need for a signature on a CCA request either.

 

And when you get their CCA from them they will tell you that there is no need for you signature to be on the CCA - unless you provide them with a specimen for them to paintshop on to their reconstructed agreement by signing your request.

 

NatWest are very poor at providing agreements from more than a few years ago. They will put up stalling arguments to avoid admitting that they don't have the agreement.

 

If they persist with their argument ask them which clause of the act specifies that you must provide a signature.

 

Meanwhile you have made a valid request that they haven't responded to.

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  • 4 months later...

Tonixx............important rule do not phone them,only deal with this matter in writing..........are you paying any money to BC at the present time????????..........FS...................regarding Natwest just wait for their next move, do not contact them

Edited by firstship
missed out line
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Hi,

 

No their currently not getting a penny.

 

As for Natwest, ive no idea whats happening. The balls in their court. Were at deadlock as they refuse to send a CCA as ive not supplied a signature or account number for the debt....(havent had the account for about 4yrs, and have no paperwork, all I have is the reference number that comes on the letters, yet this isnt enough :|)

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Judging by their silence Nat West know there is no basis in Law for requiring your signature on the CCA Request. If it crops up again their is a letter in the Templates Library that informs them why this is NOT necessary.

 

Trouble is when the DCAs get even greedier when they are getting paid, is that they 'shoot themselves in the foot' and end up with no payments at all. They gamble on you knowing your rights, and, unfortunately of the many thousands in debt and under the clutches of these people, only a very few know of CAG or similar sites and embolden themselves to fight back.

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  • 2 months later...

Just to update this... Robinsons Way ran away with their tail between their legs.

 

Natwest wasnt impressed.... went away for a couple of months and came back with EquiDebt.... just sent them the same letter - that its in dispute with Natwest, and they replied saying they need to get confirmation from Natwest.... ummmm when will they give up.

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  • 2 years later...

In 2010, I CCA'd Natwest over a loan, which was refused because they needed my signature and account number.... which I refused. (dont know the account number as the account was closed YEARs ago)

 

Im just wondering, as I CCA'd them when they last tried chasing us, is this classed as acknowledgement to the debt?

 

We last made a payment in 2007, so would be coming up to statute barred if not. I dont know the exact date, because Natwest never produced an agreement.

 

Thankyou.

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Thankyou Ims. Thats what I was hoping. So after that, they can no longer add more defaults to my credit file? I understand the latest default remains for 6yrs in its own right, they dont just dissappear because the debt is SB.

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