Caravan site problem-asked to move after paying fees.

[tiler1]

Hi appologies if i have posted this in the wrong section.

 

In April 2010 we put our caravan on a site for the full season which runs from 1st April to 31st october. We paid the full season fee of £1050 in cash to the site owner and was given a written receipt for this amount.

 

We did not read, sign nor were we presented with any kind of agreement or contract for this period.

 

We enjoyed several weekends at the caravan however in the middle of May we received a call from the site owner demanding we remove our caravan from the site with no reason given. When i questioned this he still gave no reason but after several phone calls he told us that he thought we had tampered with the electrical breaker in the fuse box which is situated in the middle of the field near our, and other caravans.

 

We were aware that the previous user of our socket had changed the breaker from a 6 amp to a 10 amp but he had told us this had been ok'd with the site owner so we just plugged into it non the wiser and used it while we were there.

 

When we went to our caravan at the weekend. the site owner continued to demand we moved the caravan. When i explained we had not tampered with the box and it had been done by the previous pitch owner he would not listen. We are also aware that on an electrician checking the site that 10 other breakers have been changed by other people using them.

 

He said he had paid £530 for an electrician to test all the electric supply t the fields and change the said breakers back to 6 amp.

 

He gave us a cheque for £300 and told us if we wanted anymore money to take him to small claims court and he would defend it.

Given the fact we have used it for about 6 weeks that would amount to approx £225 of usage from the total £1050 paid. Add the £300 he refunded would take it to £525 so in effect he has taken half of our full amount paid for the 6 weeks out of a posssible 32 weeks of usage over the full season.

 

We feel although 10 people had changed their breakers thus all being responsible for the electrician to have been called, we have had to foot the bill by loosing £525 towards the £530 he paid the electrician.

 

We are only aware of one other person who was asked to move off sitedue to changing his breaker but he had not paid the full season fee so has not been left out of pocket. No-one else has been asked to leave site.

We have now had to move our caravan off site and had to pay a further £1100 for a pitch somewhere else until October as this is the only site we could find with a space for us.

 

Can he take this money off us, as i say we did not have any kind of agreement whatsoever.

 

Thanks for reading, any advice would be appreciated.

 

Paul

[MARTIN3030]

Strange story.

I will move your thread to General Consumer issues - I reckon you may get more thoughts there.

[MARTIN3030]

edit-Have also changed thread title.

[Conniff]

Do you have brochure etc showing the cost of the full season?

 

Is there a website for this place?

[tiler1]

I dont have a brochure and have never seen a printed one when ive been in the reception, however there is a website which does detail the full cost of the season along with tarrifs for single weekend caravan pitches etc.

 

North Wales | Caravan and Camping Park near Mold

 

 

 

Tariff and Conditions

MidweekWeekends Bank Holiday Adult £4.50£5.50£6.50Child (3 - 15 years) £2.50£2.50£3.00Child (under 3 years)freefreefreeElectric hook up (6 amp) £3.00 £3.00£3.00Dog £1.00£1.00£1.00Expedition groups £5.00£5.00£5.00Seasonal pitch (2010) from £1050 py

• Midweek - Sunday night to Thursday night (excluding Bank Holidays).
  
• Weekends - Friday and Saturday night.
  
• Bank Holiday - Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights of Bank Holiday weekends plus Thursday night on Easter weekend.
  
• Prices are per person per night for tent or caravan.
  
• Maximum of one free child age under 3 per family.
  
• py = per year (seasonal pitch).
  
• Winter storage available for seasonal pitch holders only.
  
• Open from 1st April to 31st October (2010).
  
• All are grass pitches.
  
• During bank holidays there will be an extra charge for extra large tents on electric hook up pitches.
  
• On bank holidays there will be a charge for day visitors to your tent or caravan of £2.00 per adult. Visitors are asked to leave by 10pm.
  
• Minimum 3 night reservations taken on bank holidays for electric hook up pitches.
  
• Showers and hot water included in the price. Electric hook up is 6 amp (suitable for lighting, TV and low voltage appliances - Not suitable for electric fires, domestic kettles or other high voltage appliances).
  
• We regret we cannot reserve specific pitches.
  
• A deposit of £20.00 is required per electric hook up pitch on bank holidays then balance is payable on arrival. At all other times and for non-electric pitches full payment is made on arrival.
  
• We accept the following Credit/Debit Cards.
  
  
• Pitches must be vacated by 2pm.
  
• Arrivals before 12 midday will be charged £5.00 early arrival charge per pitch.
  
• You are welcome to bring your bikes.
  
• BBQ’s allowed – keep them off the grass. Only charcoal to be burnt – no wood to be burned.
  
• Expedition groups welcome by arrangement.
  

these are the only conditions we have ever seen and no other agreement is in place.

Edited June 17, 2010 by tiler1
mistake in typing

[Conniff]

I suggest that you take him up on his offer and use the on line small claims to just that.

 

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

 

Get all your info in order and print off a copy of what you have from the website. Don't mention the other pitches changing their fuses, it has no relevence as more wrongs don't make it any better for you.

[buzby]

Yep, that's how I see it too, how kind of him to suggest it!

 

I'm assuming the electricity is inclusive, therefore in his eyes too much power was being taken and not budgeted for? 6 amps it a VERY low amount, and the bare minimum allowed, however his terms clearly state that this is the benchmark and he is entitled to enforce this.

 

What isn't, is the electricin's charge which you neither authorised or agreed to, so remove this cost (or whatever you allowed for this) he is entitled to a clrain pro-rata fee for the number of weeks on site, providing a refund for all remaining weeks you could notr enjoy. As he retains the ultimate right to end services at his whim (seasonal pitches) there is little to be gained in pursuing anything additional.

 

So, as you have relocated, write by Recorded Delivery, carefully laying down the dispute in summary, along with his suggestion to take him to court. State your calculations for the weeks owed, less any rebate given to leave the amount in dispute.

 

State that you now require this to be repaid in 28 days, and if not forthcoming, you will without further notice raise an action for the balance, which you trust will not be necessary. It does without saying, he cannot accuse you of benefiting from upgrading the breaker unless he sitnessed you doing it, so providing he doesn't have this - you'll be safe.

[tiler1]

going to write a letter this weekend.

 

Do i need to refer to any act or law that he is in breach of by witholding our money??? ie - we request the outstanding monies are forwarded to us within 28 days otherwise you will be in breach of (such and such an act)????

 

thanks

[buzby]

He doesn't have to be in 'breach' of anything. YOu paid for a service, and he did not provide it, therefore you require a refund of all weeks you were prevented from taking. He's certainly in breach of common-sense.... 8)

[tiler1]

I sent the caravan site a letter by recorded delivery giving them 28 days to refund the money they owe me. I advised them i would, without further notice, commence a claim in the small claims court. This period of time has now expired by about 10 days so will now be issuing a claim.

 

Just a little concerned he may put a counter claim in and attempt to claim that he deducted the money to cover his electricians cost, however this is obviously due to the fact that so many people changed their breakers and dont think he would succeed in pinning such a charge on me??

 

Any advice on how to best word the claim specifics????

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[buzby]

Just keep it brief and rais only specifics to the case, not what you imagine was done. YOu need to assert to did nothing to the electrical installation, and if it was not to the site owners liking, then as you inherited it in this condition, you were neither aware there was a n issue or were asked or consulted to contribute to any replacement or rectification measures.

 

It is this lack of consultation that gives you the better position.

[tiler1]

No contact made with myself by the caravan site. Claim now made via county court, he has until 13th September to respond.

Will keep you updated.

[wheelergeezer]

If the site owner chose to paint the field with tartan paint and fix sky hooks up everywhere, that would not be your problem, concern or expense. So, if he chose to have an electrician do anything that is also not your problem, concern or expense.

 

You say the CB was changed by the previous pitch user. Do you have proof of this or does the site owner have proof to the contrary? You have been accused of interfering with the electricty supply effectively, so getting the previous pitch user to your side would be an enormous help.

 

In any event, there is a verbal contract. You agreed to pay X amount for use of the pitch for X period of time. The site owner agreed to offer those terms. He is in breach of the contract and thus you are entitled not only to a refund of the pro rata fees paidf, but also any out of pocket expenses and consequential loss.

 

The site owner has accused you of something. The onus is entirely upon him to substantiate that claim. So, any defence to the tune of 'I think' will not was in court. 'I can prove' does.

 

As a matter of interest is there not any legilation to suggest he should have had that checked BEFORE you took up occupancy of that pitch? He cannot now retrospectively check.

[Surfer01]

Many of these site owners are very sneaky and will do anything to make a quick buck. The rate 6amps is very low meaning that you haver toi run most of the stuff in the caravan on gas. Certainly could not run heating on 6amps or even the hot water boiler and also the fridge which is why people may have changed the breakers. Gets annoying when things trip off just because you switched on the telly or went to b oil the kettle!

[buzby]

Quick buck? You mean avoiding paying for extra gas to run the hot water, heating and fridge like it was supposed to? By limiting to 6a it means the gas appliances are used as they should. By switching to an annual but unmetered supply, allows an unscrupulous tenant to rip off the site.

 

Bat that isn't the issue here - the OP is being held responsible for switching the breaker without proof he did so.

[Surfer01]

Most caravans have a dual system, that is electric and gas and when you go on most sites 10amp is supplied as a minimum and electric is included in the pitch fee as the cost of gas which you buy in bottles is is very high.

All site supplies are metered, i.e one phase supplies 10 pitches so a three phase supply can feed 30 pitches but it is all metered at one point on a single meter. If they have HH metering it is even cheaper for the site owner. The only way forward on this one is for the OP to take the small claims route as suggested but they will have an uphill battle. Our friends unfortunately have those t-shirts through no fault of their own. We just moved to another site at the end of the season.

[tiler1]

UPDATE:

 

The summons was issued with the defendant being required to respond with a defence by 13th sept. He has not responded to the court, i have had no contact from him so therefore a judgement has now been raised and immediate payment is required. I have a feeling he wont agree to pay so may have to take the next step of issuing a warrant of execution?? We will see what happens over the next week or so.

 

Any other advice appreciated!!

[buzby]

Good. Yes, that's how it pans out for. Judjement by default, but be prepared for an Ppeal based on him bot receiving the paperwork!

[tiler1]

Just had confirmation that the caravan park has submitted an aknowledgement of service yesterday (14th) even though the deadline was the 13th!!! Phoned them and apparently he is ok to do this and it superceedes my request for a judgement to be issued. What is the point of issuing a deadline if it means nothing??

 

He now has until the 29th to file his defence.

[buzby]

Perhaps his defence will be late too...? These 'deadlines' are always flud - they are allowed 'reasonable' leeway on dates, a couple of days is normally looked at with distain, but nothing more. Go over this and they lose patience. And the reason why the deadline isn;t a deadline? Probably because they too like the flexibility it offers to pull things together, so if they give any leeway, they expect it in return themselves.

[tiler1]

Have now received a copy of his defence. Quite amusing, but expected i suppose.

 

1) Firstly he states on booking the pitch in October last year i was given a list of the site rules which included details of the 6 amp supply to each caravan. This we did not receive or see at anytime and have certainly not signed anything to this effect. He has stated that paying the deposit for the pitch constitutes acceptance of the site rules. The only copy of any rules i have seen is the one on the website as posted on here which i found months after we occupied the pitch.

 

2) He then states in May 2010 someone mentioned to him that a pitch owner had been boasting about increasing their power supply by changing the breaker unit. There is no reference that the person boasting is me, which i have never done anyway as i was not aware of the breaker having been changed for our pitch. There is obviously someone who has changed breakers on their pitch then.

 

3)He states in his defence that only my pitch and one other had the breakers changed however when i last spoke to him at the time of the dispute, he told me at least ten had been changed and he also suspected eight others may have been changed also. He also told this to the person who occupied the pitch next to me whom i can get a statement off to verify this.

 

4) He states i have put myself and the other park users in danger by tampering with the electrics, which i have never done. This would have needed to be done whilst the electrics were live at the consumer unit as the only wat to switch them off is within the inside of his business premises. Although im no electrician, i think anyone would have to be a little numb to change a breaker with live electrics at the time!!

 

5) He is now claiming when i arrived at my caravan on the day of the dispute that he and an employee requested to search my caravan. This did not happen and i would never have agreed anyway without police presence. He is claiming that he found a 10 amp breaker the same as the ones in his boxes in a tool cupboard under the sink in my caravan. This is totally untrue and i dont even have a tool cupboard under my sink, its a cleaning cupboard soley!!

 

6) He claims i admitted to him at the time that i had stolen the curcuit breaker and stolen electricity from him and these were the reasons why he wanted me to be removed from the site immediatley. I never admitted to any theft or tampering with the electricity supply.

 

7) He then claims i refused to remove my caravan from the site and this is why he paid me £300 to 'soften the blow to my family who were upset at the prospect of leaving'. I never refused to leave whatsoever. I pleaded with him as we were innocent, to no avail. I then outlined i could not move my caravan as the vehicle i had visited in that weeken had no tow bar so he agreed for us to make it our last weekend on the site, told us we could stay overnight and collect it during the week.

My wife and children were far too upset to stay overnight so we left the site and went home that same night. I returned on the wednesday to remove the caravan which i had previously checked with the site owner and he had agreed to this.

 

7) He then states he was under no obligation to pay ANY money back to me but did so to get me to move as soon as possible.

 

8) He also states he had involved the police in the matter and quotes a crime number in his defence, however afterwards decided to keep it low key and deal with it himself!!

 

As i said some facts are quite amusing, just have to see which way it goes at court now. Ive submitted the allocation questionaire and returned it in plenty of time so just awaiting the next step now.

[buzby]

If the crime number has been disclosed, follow it through by checking with the police. His responses can be argued by you easily, but this one which doesn;t affect you directly, can be challenged as bogus as well if you can state the 'crime' was not reported as stated.

[Surfer01]

Since when would he have the right to conduct a search of your caravan. If he did it without your knowledge that would be breaking and entering which is a criminal offence or at the very least trespass which is civil. I belong to a few caravan forums and it could be interesting to know if any one else has had problems with this site..

[tiler1]

Busby - what is your outlook on what he is saying about me having agreed to the terms and conditions by paying the deposit and the part about him saying he is under no obligation to refund me any money??

 

As he has requested we vacate the pitch is he rquired to refund the portion of rent payed that we have not used. Obviously if i had signed an agreement to say it would not be refunded should we leave ot be reuested to leave then maybe i wouldnt be able yo claim it back but as i stated no agreement was in place and even the terms and conditions he is on about state nothing about refunds or loss of payments made.

 

Surfer01 i am quite certain he has not conducted a search of the caravan whilst i was not there. I would know if he had been in the van.

[Surfer01]

Seller in defecne stated the following;

He is now claiming when i arrived at my caravan on the day of the dispute that he and an employee requested to search my caravan. This did not happen and i would never have agreed anyway without police presence. He is claiming that he found a 10 amp breaker the same as the ones in his boxes in a tool cupboard under the sink in my caravan. This is totally untrue and i dont even have a tool cupboard under my sink, its a cleaning cupboard soley!!

 

To me that is an admission that he entered your caravan at sometime without your knowledge or permission and that is a criminal offence. May be worth your while registering this with the police and he states he did the same to yourself. A very similar thing happened to friends of ours but not with electric. They were on a site in the worcestershire area.

Either way I don't think he has a very good defence as he cannot prove that you changed the breaker. I have worked with electrics all my life and there is no way I would change a RCD on a live circuit.