Phonecall from ASDA.

[kwaks]

Certainly sounds to me that the calls may have been made in error from the numbers dialled list. Other scenario could be the drivers partner dialled the number (strange number on her partners mobile?). In both cases the driver would be unaware, and in scenario 2 the partner may have wiped the phone log, once again something he would be unaware of.

 

As the driver was forthcoming with his info when you did contact him I feel he may be being honest, and is prob more perplexed than you (his job could be at risk).

 

Yes an apology may have settled this earlier with a mistake admission, however if the driver and employer are genuinly unaware of the calls then you might understand why no apology was immediately forthcoming.

[Bookworm]

I think you need to show that they have done something wrong in law. I've not seen that yet.

 

No-one has yet cited precedent or statute as to what they've done wrong save perhaps for an error dialing. Happens all the time.

 

the burden of proof is on you, and personally, I'm not yet persuaded. this is only my opinion thought. I might be wrong, as I pointed out above, this is not my field of expertise.

But I have, the Data Protection Act to be specific.

 

The Data Protection Act 1998 establishes the following 8 principles in relation to the processing (ie management) of personal data

1. Personal data should be processed fairly and lawfully.
   
2. Data should only be obtained for specified purposes and should not be further processed in a manner incompatible with these purposes.
   
3. Personal data should be adequate relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they were collected.
   
4. Personal data should be accurate and where necessary kept up to date.
   
5. Personal data should not be kept longer than is needed for its intended purpose.
   
6. Personal data should be processed in accordance with the rights of the individual which the information concerns.
   
7. Appropriate measures should be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing or destruction of personal data.
   
8. Personal data should not be transferred outside the European Economic Area (the EU states plus Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway).
   

(my bold)

 

To add to that, the data controller has a duty that the data is kept safe and not disseminated. Having a driver storing a number on his private phone is anything but, with the consequences as we saw that a number can get dialled at 5 am (whether accidentally or not is totally irrelevant: if your bank accidentally throws away important documents which then accidentally end up in the hands of a thief, the bank would still be responsible for the breach of the DPA).

 

Whether Asda will respond positively or not is a different issue from what the ICO would make of it... For example, I can tell you that Barclaycard or Abbey repeatedly refused to hand over data saying the microfiche was not covered by the DPA. The ICO thought otherwise and finally ordered them to comply... which they did, reluctantly and still arguing they didn't agree with the ICO... but obeyed nevertheless. ;-)

[Kraken1]

I doubt that a mobile telephone number alone would be classed as personal data. I think there are also issues with your definition of 'storage'.

 

Beyond all that, even it it were deemed to be personal data, then it seems to me that the cause of action lies against the caller, not asda. I can almost promise you that they would show that there were appropriate measures in place and it was only the unauthorised and unexpected acts of the driver that led to this.

 

So my conclusion stands. Its going nowhere without goodwill from asda.

 

Make the complaints to the ico etc by all means. Buy the stamps, write the letters, get stressed about it. Knock yourself out. My view is that it is a waste of time. How you spend your time is up to you.

 

Just please come back here and let us know how you've got on. I expect you'll be disappointed unless you can persuade asda to do something of their own volition. I would love you to prove me wrong, but I'm here to give advice as to what I think the case is, not what we'd like it to be or to tell you what you want to hear.

[haggis1984]

But I have, the Data Protection Act to be specific.

 

 

 

The Data Protection Act 1998 establishes the following 8 principles in relation to the processing (ie management) of personal data

1. Personal data should be processed fairly and lawfully.
   
2. Data should only be obtained for specified purposes and should not be further processed in a manner incompatible with these purposes.
   
3. Personal data should be adequate relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they were collected.
   
4. Personal data should be accurate and where necessary kept up to date.
   
5. Personal data should not be kept longer than is needed for its intended purpose.
   
6. Personal data should be processed in accordance with the rights of the individual which the information concerns.
   
7. Appropriate measures should be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing or destruction of personal data.
   
8. Personal data should not be transferred outside the European Economic Area (the EU states plus Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway).
   

(my bold)

 

To add to that, the data controller has a duty that the data is kept safe and not disseminated. Having a driver storing a number on his private phone is anything but, with the consequences as we saw that a number can get dialled at 5 am (whether accidentally or not is totally irrelevant: if your bank accidentally throws away important documents which then accidentally end up in the hands of a thief, the bank would still be responsible for the breach of the DPA).

 

Whether Asda will respond positively or not is a different issue from what the ICO would make of it... For example, I can tell you that Barclaycard or Abbey repeatedly refused to hand over data saying the microfiche was not covered by the DPA. The ICO thought otherwise and finally ordered them to comply... which they did, reluctantly and still arguing they didn't agree with the ICO... but obeyed nevertheless. ;-)

 

Hey books,

 

Just remembered reading on CAG that a complaint to the ICO regarding a phone number being passed to a debt collector was dismissed as they didn't consider a phone number personal information.

 

Squirrel - If you are going to make a complaint to the ICO make a quick phone call to them to clarify this before you start form filling?

Edited January 28, 2010 by haggis1984

[Bookworm]

Just remembered reading on CAG that a complaint to the ICO regarding a phone number being passed to a debt collector was dismissed as they didn't consider a phone number personal information.

Really? I did NOT know that... Quite shocking if that is true. As you say, it'd be good to have that confirmed one way or another.

 

Kraken, I have said from the start that it would rely on Asda's good will for any significant result to benefit the OP. BUT in my mind, there are 2 separate issues: 1 is the inconvenience caused to the OP, to which as I have said an apology and a voucher or similar would be appropriate, and 2 is the (possible) DPA breach (with the caveat of the info as quoted above), which would make no difference to the OP per se, but could lead to Asda having to alter their procedures and the way they handle data.

 

As for the letter writing, knock yourself out etc... personally, I find it depressing that on a consumer orientated site, we seem to get more people whose general attitude is "not worth the hassle". Apathy is the worst barrier to any consumer protection, and it is a shame to see it advocated as a matter of course. People come to us because they feel aggrieved, and sending them away with a flea in their ear is not what they came for.

[haggis1984]

I was shocked too, thats why it stuck with me.

 

 

Just googled 'is a phone number personal data' and it links to:

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/detailed_specialist_guides/personal_data_flowchart_v1_with_preface001.pdf

 

Ive read it and can't find anything in there about phone numbers, but the google search summary reads:

 

8 The term 'personal data' undoubtedly covers the name of a person in conjunction with his telephone number or information about his working conditions or ...

 

 

Cant for the life of me find that statement in the document though

 

 

 

Quote from page 6 might be relevant?

 

A name is the most common means of identifying someone. However, whether any potential identifier actually identifies an individual depends on the context. By itself the name John Smith may not always be personal data because there are many individuals with that name. However, where the name is combined with other information (such as an address, a place of work, or a telephone number) this will usually be sufficient to clearly identify one individual8. (Obviously, if two John Smiths, father and son, work at the same place then the name, John Smith, and company name alone will not uniquely identify one individual, more information will be required).

[Kraken1]

I find it depressing that on a consumer orientated site, we seem to get more people whose general attitude is "not worth the hassle". Apathy is the worst barrier to any consumer protection, and it is a shame to see it advocated as a matter of course. People come to us because they feel aggrieved, and sending them away with a flea in their ear is not what they came for.

 

what they come for is accurate, reasonable advice on their rights.

 

I am an advocate of fighting those battles where you can win or achieve something. I don't suggest apathy where there is something worth going for, I just don't see the point here.

 

I think we are obliged to advise posters when they are potentially barking up the wrong tree. Following advice based on what should have happened, rather than a legal right could cause a poster to march off and incur legal costs or similar. This means that sometimes you need to send them away with a flea in their ear.

 

With regard to the personal data/phone number. A number might be personal data if it was a land line or was matched to other info. A mobile on its own is unlikely to be identifiable. I seem to remember that it was discussed in an eu case, but can't exactly recall.

[Bookworm]

I am an advocate of fighting those battles where you can win or achieve something. I don't suggest apathy where there is something worth going for, I just don't see the point here.

No, you don't... But OP obviously did or he wouldnt' have come here.

I think we are obliged to advise posters when they are potentially barking up the wrong tree. Following advice based on what should have happened, rather than a legal right could cause a poster to march off and incur legal costs or similar.

In this instance, a complaint to the ICO will cost him nothing and may force Asda to tighten their procedures. What's so wrong with that?

This means that sometimes you need to send them away with a flea in their ear.

Yes, maybe, based on accurate legal advice. An opinion that he is wasting his time, or as has been suggested above, that he is "wildly over-reacting" is nothing of the sort and frankly quite disheartening to anyone who already feels they have been poorly treated.

With regard to the personal data/phone number. A number might be personal data if it was a land line or was matched to other info. A mobile on its own is unlikely to be identifiable. I seem to remember that it was discussed in an eu case, but can't exactly recall.

I must say this is the first time I have heard this, but I am happy to learn more if someone can find the info.

[Squirrel64]

Ok. So I agree. My gut feeling is that his girlfriend saw my no. had a turn and phoned me. Hence two cutoffs only 1 connection. and then deleted. If they had acknowledged and apologised i would have got this. BUT my number which i gave to ASDA, entrusted to ASDA to use responsibly, was stored on this man's private phone. NOT on a works mobile. Why? This is a total breach. I did not supply my information to Anthony - ASDA DID WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. I am not letting this go. If this man had rung my 79 year mother she would have been terrified. i need ASDA to confirm in writing that my details have now been removed from their data base and most importantly from Anthonys phone. Help me to make this happen please.

[Squirrel64]

Bookworm there is a point. Would you want your mother phoned at 5 am?

[Bookworm]

Well, that would be a turn-up for the books as she's been dead 3 years...

 

But no, of course not, which is why I'm on your side here. Let's face it, if you'd received the call(s) at 10 or 11 am, my advice would probably have been somewhat different, as it wouldn't be such a big deal IMO. But the thought of my phone ringing at dawn always terrifies me, for the reasons given above (and dismissed as "harping on" and "irrelevant" ), so I can completely understand your reasons for pursuing this.

[Squirrel64]

Thankyou for all your replies. The point is that I was disturbed by the first call when I could clearly hear someone on the end of the phone. By the 3rd call I was seriously disturbed, particularly as this man knows where I live. I had hoped initially that ASDA would apologise and deal with it. Someone mentioned that Anthony was forthcoming with information and therefore was probably innocent. That is not so. The Home delivery manager telephoned me and told me he had asked all drivers to give him their personal and work mobile numbers and that the number I gave did not correspond to them at all. She assured me that she had been clear that all numbers needed to be supplied, without room for confusion. Anthony only admitted to having his phone when I telephoned him with his manager present. When she checked his phone there was no record of an outgoing call to my phone. Since it is logged on my phone it should have logged on his too, suggesting that he was aware of it and had deleted it. This to me very much negates any suggestion that the calls were entirely innocent, otherwise why didnt Anthony just hold his hands up and apologise? Further despite my requests ASDA wont give me an assurance in writing that they have removed my information from this man's phone and indeed from their own database and that is what I want. Can anyone tell me how to contact the commisioners office please, I have found an ombudsman address but not sure if that is the same.

[haggis1984]

Information Commissioner's Office - ICO

 

If youre going to complain to them you need to write to Asda first, and give them 30 days to respond.

[Squirrel64]

Right, update; Asda phoned' today. Called me 'Mrs Honingdon' (nowhere even close to the name I had kindly writen on their letter) five times. Then told me I had an attitude when i attempted to correct him. Then deliberately called me Mrs Honingdon again. Anyway the gist of their call is that they will not be removing my details thanks and their driver is free to have them whenever he likes. It is not illegal. Frankly if Asda want to ignore the moral issue here that is there lookout. In this modern age of social networking I think others have a right to know. Im gonna tell em' starting with the 600 people on my friends list. God knows how many friends they have. And ASDA, if you are reading this, which you are, you failed. All you had to do was acknowledge my pain. You dont want to. Fine. Please stop trying to suggest that I am delusional/tedious/boring you/need to run along now. If you ring me again please check what my name is before you phone and please attempt to say it correctly. Dont get all snippy when I correct you. If you did this stuff right in the first place I wouldnt be complaining! And as for holding on to my private information..... would you like my DNA for reference too? I am sure you are breaching my human rights actually. Anyway, I will not go away. Other people have the right to know that if they give their info to ASDA it is not protected. With this information I'm sure that many people will decline to sign up to home delivery. Had I known, I certainly would.

[MARTIN3030]

What are the terms you have signed up for ?

Have you remaining contractual obligations ?

Is the contract regulated under CCA ?

 

If there are contractual obligations still in place,I would be looking to terminate.

You would then be free to issue them with a section 10 notice which would require them to cease processing/sharing ALL your data.

 

Their response has been extraordinary given that they did have a chance to exonnerate themselves and resolve this a bit more professionally.

[Fuzzgin]

I don't understand why there's any discussion here, the OP was called in the early hours of the morning by someone who should not have been calling and should not have been able to call. Someone who knew the OP's address. That would have scared me. A simple apology and an explanation of how ASDA were going to ensure it could not happen again would probably have sufficed, but no, ASDA argued, dismissed the OP's worries made the matter worse and seem to need a top to bottom training in "how to keep a customer - for dummies."

 

Good luck with this. Hope you get somewhere. What I really wanted to say when I started to read was, keep everything in writing. Phone calls rarely work as you have no proof ofwhat was said and no guarantee that the person you are talking to has any authority.

[Acropolis]

I can understand that you are a little annoyed at recieving a call at 0530 in the morning, and then been fobbed off by Asda about the whole thing, but this seems to be going over the top a little to me.

 

In all probability the calls were made in error. I personally wouldnt class the numbers as been "stored" on the phone, this to me woudl suggest some intent at keeping the information on a permanent basis, most if not all mobile and now land line phones, have a redial list and call logs. Yes technically this information is stored, but as it is done automatically rather than through a deliberate action then this should have some bearing on the issue.

 

Has there been any serious, if at all breach of the laws, I really doubt it, I have no legal knowledge of this field so could well be wrong, but it all looks like it could have been blown out of scale. I think if anything you have more of an issue with the manager and people you spoke to at Asda about the way they handled your complaint rather than the complaint itself.

 

The driver rang you initially wiht all good intent, you didnt answer the door when he rang it for whatever reason. Whatever the reason it isnt his fault you didnt hear the door, by rights he should probably have put the stuff back on the van and then carried on with his route and returned your shopping to the store. If he didnt have a company mobile then that is a poor show from Asda's side, but it does happen occasionally, there have been times when my engineers have used their own phone cause there is a problem with the works phone or no signal or something like that. But he didnt take it back, he rang you off his own phone, probably at his own expenses so you could get your shopping.

 

I am not saying Asda have acted correctly in the way your complaint has been dealt with, but I think you need to step back and look at it with a fresh pair of eye and stop over reacting so much. You have mentioned human rights etc etc, dont you think this is going a little too far.

[Squirrel64]

I dont need a fresh pair of eyes. Asda have behaved atrociously. What do you know of their drivers intent? for that matter what do they? only he knows. what I know is that he phoned 3 times. not once, but 3 times. at 5.30 am. All home delivery services phone if you dont answer the door, its part of the service. Tesco provide their drivers with a works phone which they leave at work so this cannot happen. Their driver DO NOT use their own phones. I work in the community I DO NOT use my own phone to contact clients, it renders their information open to abuse. If we dont stand up and be counted with the small things then in time it becomes acceptable and before you know it all details will be randomly stored in places we have no control over. My no. is exdirectory for a good reason, i did not give it to asda to share with strangers. they have not even confirmed that this man is crb checked, which leads me to believe he is not. So dont talk to me about intent. you know nothing about their driver and neither do i, but i have to go to sleep at night knowing that he knows where i live and my phone number. you look through fresh eyes. I have a right to feel safe in my own home, asda do not have the right to interfere with that. BUT THEY HAVE.

[Kraken1]

err, no. If it is deliberate, and he is a scary stalker, he is your problem. Not asda. They are as much a victim as you, he stole information from them and misled them.

 

Personally I think you are spending too much time stressing over this.

[Squirrel64]

Give me your phone no. kraken. lets see how you feel about this at 5.30 tommorrow morning. Just to spice it up kraken lets put your elderly mother in hospital and you a single parent with a daughter. I doubt if other people who are planning to impart their info to asda would see it the same way kraken. given what I have to tell them i think they may think twice about have asda home delivery. Tesco have procedures in place to protect their customers from this sort of rubbish. If we all thought like you kraken nothing would change. Do you really think a matter is only worth pursuing if there is finanacial gain? You make me sick. grow a backbone, get some soul and stop being so pathetically cynical. I dont give a dam if you dont have enough self respect to believe that you deserve a good service, thats why companies like asda get away with this sort of crap.

[Squirrel64]

'They are as much a victim as you, he stole information from them and misled them. '

 

If that was the case why have they not confirmed that they have retrieved this information and sacked him? Does anyone want to shop with a company who knowingly employs staff who deceive them so it can harrass their customers......

[butty_a]

err, no. If it is deliberate, and he is a scary stalker, he is your problem. Not asda. They are as much a victim as you, he stole information from them and misled them.

 

Personally I think you are spending too much time stressing over this.

 

 

Actually if ASDA had proper procedures in place i.e company phones then this issue would be less likely to happen. ASDA have turned what started as a slight grievence, which an apology and assurance it wont happen again would have resoled, into a more serious problem of not wishing to control private infomation and very poor customer care.

The phones calls seem to be diliberate as they happened in quick succession each time and hanging up quickly too, a phone in the pocket or a book on a touch screen wont do that. How many times have you had to hang up after listeng to somebady's conversation via thier pocket or had long irrelavant vioce mails. Again, why delete the records?

Having siad that, I dont think this will go too far but sending letters of complaints to various people and organisations trying to right a wrong can be quite theraputic and often does does some good, be it a resolution or satisfaction you have aired your views.

Give 'em stick I say. If they rang me like that at 0530 and I had his name and number, a letter to his boss would be the least of his worries. Plenty of website wanting personal infomation including numbers who will phone you back at pre-arranged times. Not that I would reccomend that of course

[Kraken1]

Of course I've had odd calls at odd times, including at godknowswhatoclock in the morning. I wouldn't be surprised if many people have. I know I have also sent multiple blank texts to folk in the middle of the night, as well as having a ropey phone that also made phantom calls.

 

As for what disciplinary action they may have or may not have taken, you are very naive if you think they are going to tell you. as for sacking him, I hope not myself, unless they have proof it was malicious. Which I can't see them having.

 

Whether this saga will prevent folk using asda, I very much doubt it.

 

I agree that complaining can sometimes be cathartic, but in this instance, the tones of your post persuade me that you are getting more stressed by the response or lack thereof, and the process of complaining (in the event where nothing has as yet been achieved) than the act itself.

 

There are more important things to worry about in life.

 

If you want to try and call me at 5.30 in the morning, frankly you are welcome to do so. All you need to do is get my number from tescos or sainsburies. I use them to deliver stuff all the time. Or I will sell it to you for a reasonable sum. I think £50 seems about right. then you can call my voicemail as much as you like.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Kraken1

[1stlifeline]

you know nothing about their driver and neither do i, but i have to go to sleep at night knowing that he knows where i live and my phone number.

 

Surely that applies to lots of people, every time you give your number to the bank, insurance companies, utility companies etc. All these companies employ people you know nothing about.

[Fuzzgin]

you know nothing about their driver and neither do i, but i have to go to sleep at night knowing that he knows where i live and my phone number.

 

Surely that applies to lots of people, every time you give your number to the bank, insurance companies, utility companies etc. All these companies employ people you know nothing about.

 

Which is true. We TRUST them to not misuse that information. This trust has broken down and that is an issue.