HFC loans & LCS -are these enforceable HELP

[seville]

Hi

 

I'm hoping that Peterbard picks this up or one of the CAG experts becasue I need to respond to LCS and I think they are enforceable but I'm not 100%

 

I'm the executor for the estate of my boyfriend (he died in June 08). I have probate

There are lots of debts I'm sorting out --there are loads! I'm getting through them and sorting what is to be paid and what is rubbish

 

I need advice about 2 loans with HFC that are unpaid. They were refered to 1st Credit and now they are with LCS.

 

It has taken LCS 6 months to provide me with the CCAs for the loans which are:-

1. Dixons (HFC) Easiplan Dixons 21.8% personal loan signed 5th Nov 2005.

2. currys superstore (HFC) 'Interest free opiton 9'personal loan-April 04

 

Both CCAs are on one page (they didnt send me page 2) and seem to contain all the data but doesnt have the section on your legal rights (well thats all I can identify thats missing)

 

He hasnt signed up for the PPI and they are signed and dated both by my ex and the shop assistant and dated

 

I've attached the two CCAs --will someone check them for me to see if they are ok?

If they are valid I will be looking to attack the extensive charges and try and claw something back subject to me being able to read the coded rubbish they have sent me for the payments and charches schedules

 

sorry to be a pain --I've read lots of threads and stickys re CCAs but I'm still not 100% sure with these two because the legal right bit to cancel isnt there and page two is missing (I dont no if page 2 has anything important on it)

 

Thanks for any help you can give

Oh and my son helped me attach the docs because Im not very IT lit:mad:

[alfwithhair]

Images are too small the read any details

Try scanning the documents again and then upload to photobucket and post the IMG link into your thread

[Pinky69]

As Alf says, too small to read but if they have HFC stamped over them, that partially obliterates them and they must be totally legible.

[seville]

Sorry about the thumbnails.

I've uploaded the docs to my photobucket ac****.

If you click on the below links there are much better copies of the documents.

 

HFC Doc picture by marieflamenco - Photobucket

 

HFC doc Nov picture by marieflamenco - Photobucket

 

Can you tell if they are enforceable?

Any help greatly appreciated on this

 

[shakespeare62]

They look enforceable to me as they appear to contain the prescribed terms.

Do you have a copy of the Default Notice ? If so please post it up with you personal ID (account no. , name etc. removed). A defective default notice can effectively make the agreement unenforceable - there are many things in the Default notice they would need to comply with.

 

Also are you aware of any bank charges which were levied ?

[clemma]

They do have all the prescribed terms BUT they have HFC COPY stamped over them - as Pinky said they must be TOTALLY legible.

[seville]

Thank you all for your help

 

Clemma/Pinky --I can read the notice but because it has "HFC COPY" across it , does it make it invalid and the debt quashed? ---oh if it was that easy. Im just finding my way through all this legalalities and there is so much to take in

 

Shakespeare62- Im dealing with my deceased ex boyfriends estate and numerous debts. I cant find anything that resembles a default notice for these two HFC debts.

I have 2 letters (Jan 07) from Howard Cohen (solicitors) saying "Please accept this letter as a notice we are instructed to commencd court action for recovery of above debt. ---payment should be made to our clients agents LEWIS DEBT RECOVER----"

Then there is a letter from 1st credit April 08 refering to same debt offering a discout if you pay now.Then later letters are from LCS solicitors for 1st credit.

MY ex who died was up to his eyes in debt (I now realise this) and didnt keep everything so I dont know if he ever got a default notice.

 

Ist Credit supplied a list of coded transactions which look like payments made and regular interest entries thats been capitalised and fees but its not easy to understand eg" UDD FEE Assess £15" whats that? I need a customer friendly version--something I can understand and identify and then I can find out if there is anything I can challange.

 

What is the best way to go about:

* Getting a copy of the default notice --also who do i get it from? (HFC,Howard Cohen or 1st Credit or LCS)

* Should I send a SAR for both the payment/charges history and an actual copy of the default notice

I have been reading around the site but Iam a bit confused on which way to go on this and what I am looking for once I get the information and if its valid--all you CAGs seem to know your stuff

 

Any guidence will be greatly appreciated or any links (I've read loads) that you think may fit my circumstances

 

Thanks --so much --its good to know that little people can win against these big boys

[alfwithhair]

Sorry to hear about the passing of your ex boyfreind, but there is one question that has not been asked;

Does your ex have any estate as such: ie property, cash, savings.

Are these's debts solely in your ex BF's name?

If so you have no obligation to pay anything towards them, they were his debts and died with him. You have no liability to pay them whatsoever if your name is not on any of the agreements. Regardless of what the DCA parasites will tell you.

They can make a claim from his estate, but if there isn't one, thats that.

Can't claim on what isn't there.

[Pinky69]

As she explained in the first post, Seville is the Executor of her deceased boyfriend's Estate and has probate - it is her legal responsibility to pay any outstanding debts from the Estate.

 

I'm afraid not having a legible copy of an agreement doesn't mean the debt is quashed but it does mean that they haven't fulfilled you CCA request for a true copy (legible) of the original agreement. This means you can put the account into dispute and not make any payment until such times as they do send you a legible copy. This is the Account in Dispute letter - amend to suit:

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account. What you have sent me is obliterated and illegible.

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Send Recorded Delivery and file the receipt.

 

No DCA has any legal right to charges and fees unless it is in the original agreement so if your boyfriend paid charges and fees to them you can ask them to pay that money back into his Estate.

 

Send an SAR to HFC Loans (the original creditor):

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation. Alternatively, a complete set of statements for that period will be acceptable.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 DPA subject access request fee.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Again Recorded Delivery, enclose a £10 postal order and they have 40 days to reply. If there is pressure for payment in the meantime, you can tell the DCA that you are waiting for a response to an SAR and will have no further contact with them until you have received it.

[sploits]

I would have a look at the statements on the accounts and see what charges are on there and claim them back. HFC wanted £540 from me but it was mainly charges. I done the math (charges, default fee etc) and added the compounded interest rate and it ended up that I was able to claim back £560. The buggers owed me £20. They soon dissappeared back under their rock.

 

Sploits

[lunar jim]

Seville, is that your name on the Photobucket account? You might want to alter that if it is.

[alfwithhair]

Pinky, I am aware it is her legal responsibility to pay any outstanding debts from the Estate.

But how can you pay anything if there is nothing in the estate, thats all I was trying to assertain.

[Pinky69]

We don't know there is nothing in the estate - if there was, he would have died intestate. If there is anything at all, the creditors are first in the queue before anything else gets paid out.

[seville]

Thanks everyone!!

Pinky, there must be steam comming from your fingers --thanks again

 

I didnt give all the information about the estate because the post would have been so long. Briefly, my ex boyfriend died last year and his mum died in 2007. He didnt sort out his mums estate so when he died I am sorting out both estates and I have probate.

My ex has debts are in execess of his assets but as his mums assets form part of the estate there will be enough to clear the debts when I sell BOTH houses(my ex didnt have life insurance andhis house is negative equity but mums is morgage free).

 

Pinky , I will send the letters like you say but one question --What about the default notice? Should I incorporate my request into the SAR letter to HFC?

 

Also should I send a SAR letter to 1st credit too so I can find out what (if anything) he paid to them and what charges they have added ?? am I jumping the gun on that or what ---or should I just see what I get off HFC?

 

Thanks you all so much

When I sell both the houses I promise (and I want to!!) send a donation to CAG becasue you are brilliant and I can see how great this site is for us ordinary people who need help and support--the posts say it all:)

[Pinky69]

You can amend the SAR to suit - making clear you require a copy of the Default Notice. Send a letter to 1st Credit saying you require statements of all transactions on your late boyfriends alleged account.

[seville]

Hi Pinky

Ive sent an SAR letter to HFC which also asks for the default notice

Ive also sent an " Account in dispute" to LCS(1st credit) like you advised

Both send recorded delivery

Now Ive had another letter from LCSsolictors (1st Credit) which must have crossed in the post with mine saying that they can now enforce payment because they have given me a copy of the original CCA and the debt was 'ASSIGNED' to them on 14th Sept 2007. They enclosed a copy of 1st credits letter 14th Sept which basically says the debt was asigned to 1st Credit by HFC, payment should be made to 1st credit and not HFC and to contact them immediately re payment.

 

I dont mean to be dumb but should there be a DEFAULT NOTICE from HFC as well as the 'ASSIGNED' letter from 1st Credit?

I have read on variouse links that there must be a default notice from HFC

 

Can you give me any Help here ? I'm a little confused

I was going to write to LCS and tell them:

1) I'm waiting for a reply to my SAR & copy of the default notice

from HFC

2) Read my letter(that must have crossed in the post) that asks

for a legible copy of the original CCA

3) Payment cannnot be made until deceased property is sold and

after the mortgage has been paid off

 

Any advice on what to do next?

[Pinky69]

The Notice of Assignment must also come from HFC - a NOA from 1st Credit to their solictors proves nothing. I would inform LCS that you await a response to a SAR and a request for a copy of the original Default Notice from HFC and will not be having any further correspondence with LCS until the requested information has been received. I would also tell them that the deceased's estate is currently subject to the laws of Probate and no payment of any kind will be forthcoming to any creditor until all assets and liabilities can be determined, which will take some considerable time. I wouldn't mention you have 2 houses to sell - the assets in the estate are none of their business and they will be on you like a ton of bricks if they think the estate is sizeable.

[seville]

Pinky --can you help or at least give me some reassurance I'm doing the right thing??

 

On 2nd april 09 have sent the letters like you advised:-

1. To LCS(1st Credit) 'Account in Dispute' --because LCS failed to respond with a legible copy of the CCA agreement (the CCA had HFC copy stamped across it so it was partly difficult to read)--maybe the legality is dubious ??? The courts may find it to be fine

 

2. SAR request letter to HFC with £10.

 

On 6th April LCS wrote and demanded the full amount and said hey have prvide the CCA

9th April I wrote to LCS asking them to reply to my letter 2nd april & told them I had applied for SAR and also asked them for copy of NOA from HFC.

 

17th april LCS write saying they havent received my letter of 2nd April and ask for a copy. They say their NOA (from 1st credt to LCS) complies with the CCA 1974 and Law of property act 1925 and say 1st credit are the legal owner of the debt. They do not accept my my reluctance to communicate with LCS until I get a NOA from HFC as 1st Credit own the debt.

They have asked for a property valuation and mortgage statments

LCS say my SAR to HFC is a separate matter between me and HFC and finally when are they going to get the money!!!!!!

 

I have read a post/link by 'foolishgirl' about absolute and equitable assignments and it may be that LCS have 'absolute assignement' so the SAR should go to LCS--I think?

I was going to reply to LCS and ask them to confirm if it is absolute or equitable assignement --apparently it makes a difference on who you send the SAR to

Tell them that HFC should also inform the debtor that the debt has been assigned and I am entitled to see a copy of HFC assignment letter to prove the debt is 1st credits to collect?

I dont want to send them all the personal stuff (at this stage ) re mortgage statements & house valuation (to prove its likely negative equity) though i will if the debt is definately owing ---I'm not hiding anything but I just dont trust them

 

I feel under pressure from LCS now but I cannot pay anything until the house is sold ---and this is one of the smallest debts of the estate and these horrors are giving me the most grief of all the creditors of the estate. They are starting to get to me

 

Am I heading the right way or have you any other advice? Thanks

[Pinky69]

The SAR goes to HFC, who should have sent a Notice of Assignment when they assigned/sold the debt - it doesn't matter which kind of assignment it is. You have no proof that 1st Credit has any right to collect this debt and LCS can say until the cows come home that 1st Credit own it - you need a Notice of Assignment from HFC telling you if that is the case. The agreement is partially obliterated and they must send you a legible copy - the actual wording of the relevant law is that it should be "easily" read - you cannot do that when it has been covered by other print. If this is all they have then the original isn't legible either and it is the original they would have to produce in court.

 

Don't let LCS pressurise you. I would write to their complaints department and make a formal complaint that they are pursuing payment on a disputed account contrary to the CCA 1974, the CPUTR 2008 and OFT guidelines and no monies from the estate can be released until all documentation pertaining to alleged debts has been subjected to proof by you as Executor and funds from the estate have been released, which may take some considerable time. You can tell them that you will have no further contact with either 1st Credit or LCS until such times as you have received a reply to you SAR request to HFC. I would send a copy of that letter to the OFT.

[seville]

Pinky ---thank you so much ---again

I'll get the letter done tomorrow night after work.

[seville]

Hi and sorry I need help( and a little reassurance )again

I recieved HFC reply to my SAR --a huge bundle of papers!!

 

The 2 debts with HFC are now with 1st Credits solicitors , LCS.

 

In HFCs letter they say they cannot provide me with a copy of one of the CCA but before I get too excited about that it shouil be noted that LCS have copies of both agreements; though 'PINKY69' considers them unenforceable because they have HFC boldly printed across the CCA (see previous posts)

In the bundle of papers from HFC are the DEFAULT NOTICES for both debts but the covering letter says "The defaut notices are system generated and the copies enclosed are not copies of the original letters,, however they contain the information that was issued to Mr X". Are they still valid?

 

A 2nd point on the re the Default notices is they dont give the full 14(plus the postage days) one issued on the 23rd Oct 06 wants remedy payment by 7th Nov 06(15 days), and the other issued 16th Oc 06 and wants remedy payment by 30th Oct 06 (14 days). Am I right in thinking these are invalid? If so do you know the legislation?

 

I do not have Termination letters but the Default notice says "Termination will take effecton the date show unless paid in full before that date". As no other dates are shown in the DN I assume they mean 7th Nov and 30th Oct?? Is that valid?

 

Invalid or not HFC confirm in their letter that the debts were sold to 1st Credit. They dont give the date or provide a letter of assignment but the account printouts provided by HFC show a "charge off "date in March 07

 

Can anyone help guide me through this bag of worms?

• Has HFC sold and unenforceable debt to 1st Credit/(cos of the 14 day+2 days postage rule)?
  
• How do I tackle this with HFC and 1st credit/LCS
  

If possible I would love to get these debts (from the estate of Mr X) cancelled on validity grounds.

I know the CCA are questionable but certainly if these DN are wrong too it just gives me a twin edged sword ---so to speak.

Sorry to ask so much --I have read around on DNs but lack the confidence and tactics to challenge HFC/1st credit

 

Any help will be more than welcome --thanks

[Pinky69]

It seems they have given insufficient time for you to remedy the breaches on the DNs. This means they have terminated the accounts unlawfully and you can tell 1st credit to get lost. The cannot take any legal action against you if they terminate without valid DNs. The legal basis for all this can be found in the CCA 1974.

[seville]

Thanks Pinky --you were up late like me

Would you suggest I write to LCS solicitors to tell them to get lost and at the same time tell HFC the DNs are invalid and they have unlawfully sold an invalid debt?

 

Thanks

[Pinky69]

HFC won't be interested - they've sold the debt and it is up to the solicitors to take them to task but what I would do is report the fact to the OFT that HFC sold an ALLEGED account in your name to 1st Credit after issuing an invalid DN followed by termination of the account. As for the solicitors, a brief note to say the alleged account was sold after the issue of an invalid DN and termination and is therefore rescinded and completely unenforceable - you trust that settles the matter. If they give you any snash after that report them to the OFT too.

[seville]

Good news !!!

received letter from LCS this morning and they say" ----we are instructed that our client will not persue the matter and has closed its file":D

 

When the estate is sorted out I will be sending a donation to this site --to help keep it going so that others can be helped and received support just the way I have ---thank you all so much