morgan & stanley /barclaycard

[bones01]

ha ha good point , will get on to it this weekend ......

Still nothing in the post this morning SHOCK , so have sent them the dispute letter and the harassment by phone letter special delivery to above address so will be there tomorrow .....

Lets just wait and see what they come back with ..........

 

[bones01]

hi all update

got barclaycard t & c today , even though the card was origionally capital one ? before morgan & stanley have already sent the account in dispute letter as they never responded in time frame .

what do i send now they have answered with this ???????????

thanks

[bones01]

bump x

[slick132]

Hi Bones,

 

No need to bump unless a post remains unanswered for so long that it's in danger of falling off the first page.

 

When the CPR deadline is up, send them the LBA using the template.

 

Also, send this ltr to BC, amended for your own case as nec'y:-

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable. I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that, whilst the request has not been complied with, the default continues.

 

Yours faithfully

[bones01]

hi thanks slick ,sorry i could not find them when was looking on the new posts page so thought they had vanished

 

sorry again

 

ill sent the letter tomorrow , as for the cpr date ?? am confused i sent the cca and they had their 12+2 days then sent the letter you suggested about the acount in dispute because never responded that was about 7 days ago .. is there another deadline i should be giving them with you saying the cpr deadline ? then Lba ??

 

sorry maybe being really dumb , but just need it clarifying

thanks again

sorry for being a pest

x

[slick132]

Hi Bones,

 

You've sent a CCA request and they've done there current trick of replying with just the T&C's, hence the reply above which I've suggested.

 

However, we now know they'll still not send you the Credit Agreement in response, nor will they agree they've failed to comply with their obligations under CCA1974. So they'll continue to seek payment as they DON'T agree the a/c is in dispute. Send the letter, suggested in my last post, now.

 

Therefore you approach them for the Credit Agreement using the CPR strategy instead. If you haven't yet done so, send the CPR Prelim Letter as shown in Pt2537's thread at post #2. This will give them 21 days to reply to the CPR request.

 

This should go to the Churchill Place address in London.

[bones01]

brilliant thanks , so i send the one above now and will send this one at the same time and allow 21days for the below letter before send the one in post 3 of pt2537 thread...

 

does it matter if they go in the same envelope ?

 

as long as go to the churchill place , london address

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.Additionally i require the underwriting sheet or other document showing any commissions paid to you by the broker or by you to the broker

 

(If you have any other reasons why you need the agreement such as misselling of PPI Add it here)

 

obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and wouyld ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date ( Give 21 days to respond)

 

Regards

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

[slick132]

Hi Bones,

 

Send the ltr in post #29 to the office which sent you the T&C's. I suspect it was NOT the Churchill Place addresss. This is to confirm that you consider the a/c to be in dispute.

 

You're correct about the CPR letter. If no reply after 21 days, send Pt's next one, which is the LBA.

 

[bones01]

thank you , will do and will let you know what they respond with , they are still ringing though everyday even though i have sent them a harrasment letter , should i be recordeing calls yet or is that not necessary

thanks slick you a great help

x

[eastlondoner]

Definitely keep all your calls logged!

[slick132]

Keep a log of all calls and, if you can, record them in case they say something they really shouldn't.

 

Even if you can't use the recording for your own case, it may be useful as part of the bigger picture.

[bones01]

is there a special equipment i need to record calls ? , just note the time date down for now , til manage to get calls recorded ...

any advice would be great

 

at the moment i am just ignoring the calls have been caught off guard a few times but have just said they have been sent a harassment letter and are being taped and are breaching terms and then just hung up ... have not given them chance to speak yet ! should i when i get equipmet ?

[slick132]

Here's the offer from CAG for a recorder, from the top of this page - The Consumer Forums - Telephone Recorders reviews.

 

But if you don't want to do this, just keep the call log instead.

 

[bones01]

calls still coming , after numerous letters and today they rang and rang again stratight after each other when i kept putting the phone down on them stating " we will ring everyday until yoiu speak " ........

Should i be doing anything else , have noted down all the calls they have done , should i report them or is it a bit too early stages to do that at the mo ?

Have i just got to ignore them

[slick132]

Hi Bones,

 

Ignoring them is rule No1.

 

If you've sent the Phone Harassment letter already, make a formal complaint to Trading Standards and to the FOS enclosing a copy of the calls log.

 

Send a copy of the complaint ltr to BC and/or Mercers, adding that their calls will be logged and recorded to assist in the FOS investigation.

 

You can also complain to OFCOM, so mention this to B?/Mercers too.

[bones01]

hi slick , sorry if you are sick off me

 

Can i ask where i find the complaint letters for fos & ofcom & ts

 

Are they all the same letter ?

 

Is there a template ? i have had a look through the library and a few posts with links to the fos , but cannot for the life of me find one have been here all night ha ha ......

Definatly need a shove in the right direction ( or copy)

thanks

x

[Seasoned Pro]

I have the same card - but BC have written to me stating (after 2 months of asking for the CCA) that "they do not hold a copy of my application in their records" - which I take as a confession of not having my credit agreement.

 

Any thoughts on the next step from either side..??

 

SP

[slick132]

Hi Seasoned Pro,

 

Can you start your own thread for this to avoid hijacking.

 

Thanks

[slick132]

Hi Bones and there's no reason for anyone to be sick of you !!

 

I'm not aware of any template letters for complaints to FOS, TS and OFCOM.

 

Just make a list of all contacts rec'd from BC or Mercers on a separate sheet. Enclose it with a letter to each body asking for them to assist and investigate the constant harassing phone calls, threats to visit, etc.

 

Explain why you consider the a/c to be in dispute - ie, BC's refusal to provide a copy of your Credit Agreement, penalty charges on the a/c, etc.

 

Have you looked into reclaiming penalty chgs. sorry if this has been asked before.

[bones01]

thats why i couldnt find them then:D

 

so send a standard letter to them all with list of calls telling them account in dispute reason and explain have sent harassment letter to them etc

send it to ts and fos and bc and mercers so they know that i have reported them !!!!

 

as to reclaiming my charges for the account no i have not even looked into that at the moment and as it used to be morgan & stanley then Goldfish then bc i dont know how i would get all the statements for them would a sar work ?

If i do that would that increase their chances of tracking down the cca if they do have a legit one ?

Or is it best to get the sar , just to have as back up to hit them back woith the charges refund if they do come up with cca ?

 

Am stuck with which way to go with this one ... Was just keeping my fingers crossed that they could just not find my cca and then they could not persue the debt.... Would i not be pushing my luck if started to ask for charges back aswell .... Dont want to have my cake and eat it and get very very greedy ha ha

x x x:rolleyes:

[slick132]

Hi Bones,

 

Don't forget to send complaint to OFCOM too, quoting the regulations under which you you're complaining.

 

Send BC a SAR so you can move on with reclaiming charges on the a/c. You can decide how to d/w this aspect as the case progresses (or doesn't).

[bones01]

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUT)

 

 

Formal complaint against [Name of Debt Collection Agency here]

 

 

 

 

 

I am writing to complain under the above CPUT regulations. I am receiving letters and telephone calls from [DCA] in respect a purported debt which I understand is governed by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

 

In accordance with the Consumer Credit Act I asked [the DCA] to supply me with a true copy of the Consumer Credit agreement. [They have failed to do so/ supplied me with a document which clearly fails to satsify the Consumer Credit Act.] I enclose a copy of that document with this letter.

 

 

Although I have pointed this out to [DCA] they have failed to acknowledge this and continue to contact me and to harrass me with threats of action.

 

 

Clearly they are entitled to bring a legal action if they so wish. However, they have not done so and appear instead to be relying upon a campaign of systematic contact with accompanied by threats.

 

 

I consider that [DCA] are operating an unfair commercial practice and it is for this reason that I am sending you this complaint.

 

 

I enclose examples of the letters which they have been sending to me. I also enclose a log and verbatim notes of phone calls I have received.

 

 

I would be grateful if you would acknowledge this letter and let me know what procedures you now intend to follow and what your targets for action are.

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

is this the type of letter that i should be sending , adapting it to my circumstances , with the additional sheets of info ie / calls list , letter of dispute ?

Where would i find the regulations to quote please

x

[slick132]

If this is going to OFCOM, the regs to quote are here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/letter-templates/131250-dca-creditor-harassment-telephone.html

 

I'd change "... a campaign of systematic contact with accompanied by threats."

 

to " ... a campaign of systematic and repeated phone calls including threats."

 

[bones01]

is this ok to send to the trading standards and oft as well ?

do i include the regulations they have broke aswell?

 

secondly i have got the oft address and my local trading standars , where would i get ofcoms from please ?

 

thanks again

x

[slick132]

Ofcom complaints details are here - How to complain | Ofcom

 

Send a copy of this letter to TS and to the FOS, asking for each of them to investigate your complaint of harassment.