Got caught child's oyster card +60 uses - now SJPN

[SusMeist3r]

Hi everyone

In November 2023 I was using my little Sister's Oyster card to travel during work , I was going to take the Overground and got surrounded by TFL security as soon as they heard the triple beep. I had no choice but to give my card over and give them all my details or they'd call over British Transport Police. 

I got sent a 10 day letter to which I replied with an apology asking for an out of court settlement.

3 Months Later I get sent a letter being prosecuted for 68 previous instances of the card being used (Last 3 months prior to being caught) and being ordered to attrend magistrates court on March 11th, they're trying to make me pay £455.60 in fines + £375 TFL Contribution.

I got caught red handed and in honesty that day I had less than £10 on my card and needed to travel for work around London as I was a newly taught Salesman on Commission based pay only.

I'm very frustrated and stressed out that I can't do much about it at the moment, my father is telling me to write a letter to the tfl prosecutor/attorney asking for a out of court settlement, and a friend from work told me that if I play my cards right TFL won't pursue this case as it's not economical for them to take people to court over a small sum as they need their own lawyers.

They want me to fill out a plea form and statement of assets before court but I have no idea how to proceed to avoid a criminal conviction, I was recommended this forum for these matters.

Any advice would be great Thank you.

 

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG. I've moved your thread to the Public Transport forum and left you a link from the legal forum.

Best, HB

[honeybee13]

If I've understood this right, you've written once so far? We normally expect people to have to write two or three times. You need to write again and maybe another time after that, to try to settle.

Please could you show us what you sent last time, with your personal details covered up?

Is it a SJPN, a Single Justice Procedure notice that you've received or a summons to attend in person? You need to fill that in and return it - let us know if you're stuck on any questions - but you can still continue to negotiate with TfL.

Are the 68 instances that they're talking about right?

HB

[dx100uk]

Are the 68 instances on a list and mentions taken into consideration? The actual charge is for one journey only? 

[Grotesque]

Quote

they're trying to make me pay £455.60 in fines + £375 TFL Contribution

They generally do more than try, be advised.

Quote

they need their own lawyers

They have in-house, directly employed lawyers, so it 'costs' them nothing.

Quote

I was recommended this forum for these matters

Excellent recommendation this was. Hopefully not too late.

But they have traced the usage of the card and decided, based on probabilities (times, tap in/out points etc.), that that was you rather than the official holder of the card.

The bottom line is that you have to persuade them that prosecution is not in TfL's own interests. But this could be tricky at 68 offences. I'm afraid that the record will look to the prosecutor as if you only stopped because you were caught.

Post up each piece of previous, but redacted correspondence, please.

[dx100uk]

Read our upload guide

Use pdf only

[BazzaS]

Were you:

a) under 18, and / or

b) entitled to any other reduced fare option

on the day you were caught?

Are you “sorry that you did it” or "sorry that you got caught"?.

What was the exchange when you got caught?

What did your previous reply / replies to TfL say? (as it is in your favour if the 'tone' of your communication suggests the former, not the latter).

Have you bought a travelcard since? (where you could point TfL towards that you haven't re-offended and suggest that you wouldn't do so in future)

Suggesting to TfL it isn’t in their interest to prosecute based on costs / prosecution staff time is almost certainly bound to fail : if that was the case they wouldn't have the IAP team….. the fact they do reflects the seriousness TfL attaches to deliberate fare evasion.

 

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecutions-policy.pdf

They want to deter you from fare evasion. They want to deter others from fare evasion.

The aim, then, is to persuade them why (on balance) they shouldn’t prosecute here. When I say ‘on balance’, it is a balancing act!

”You shouldn’t prosecute me, I’ll lose my job (or lose a future career)” or "it'll imperil my immigration status" is a two-edged sword, as "needing a clean eDBS" shouldn’t equate to “don’t prosecute me but do prosecute people who don’t need that eDBS” ….. you want to show why, when all factors are considered - they have more reason not to prosecute than to do so. What you said when stopped and your previous letter can influence this : which is why those and TfL’s correspondence to date are important, too.

 

 

Edited February 17 by BazzaS

[SusMeist3r]

Q: Are the 68 instances on a list and mentions taken into consideration? The actual charge is for one journey only?

A: They escalated and decided to charge me for all 68 previous instances due to further investigation. That's why I'm being summoned to attend court in person. I was never fined in person when caught.

a) under 18, and / or : I was 20 

b) entitled to any other reduced fare option: No since I'm not a student I still live with my parents

Are you “sorry that you did it” or "sorry that you got caught"?: I'll be honest and say that I'll never be sorry I did it, I don't want to pay TFL a single cent but hey now I'm paying price for getting caught.

What was the exchange when you got caught? : They're using a statement from one of the officers that I said Yes/No to all her questions when asked if the card was mine , that they're non-transferrable and all of the latter, I'll upload a pdf of the original response

What did your previous reply / replies to TfL say? (as it is in your favour if the 'tone' of your communication suggests the former, not the latter):

In my last letter I was apologetic saying that day I didn't have enough money to return home and my relationship with my parents is very bad I couldn't ask for favours, I had to resort to using it that one time, and that I wanted to settle the matter out of court.

Then of course they decided to investigate further afterwards.

The truth is I felt very justified that day to use since I was in a new job that didn't pay per hour and I was travelling for work purposes since I was getting paid in 2 weeks and I don't want to be asking parents for financial support since it's my responsibility as an adult.

Have you bought a travelcard since? (where you could point TfL towards that you haven't re-offended and suggest that you wouldn't do so in future): I only use contactless at the moment

 

[honeybee13]

I don't have time for a full reply right now but please tell us why you aren't sorry about using a card that wasn't yours?

HB

[BazzaS]

You need to rethink your approach and attitude. If you give TfL even the slightest hint that you feel you were justified to evade your fare (& thus that you’d do it again in similar circumstances) : they have NO reason not to prosecute.

CAG is here to advise, not judge, but if I was part of the IAP team and saw your belief it was OK and that you were only sorry you’d got caught : I’d be pushing to prosecute, hence my advice on taking responsibility for your actions.

saying “I’m sorry for using it the one time” (implying it was circumstances specific to that day) and then they find out it was many more : will make it harder to get them to believe you now.  The usual advice is don’t admit to any extra offences unless they are asking, but equally, don’t lie, either.

being caught in a lie hardens their approach.

 

Edited February 19 by BazzaS

[SusMeist3r]

I'm willing fully to accept responsibility instead of playing it off, I just don't want them to take advantage of that and prosecute me more harshly.

Also I don't understand how they can associate me with the previous 68 offences even if they time they line up is very similar, they dont have cctv of me doing it so how would they know?

Also the statement from the officer they're using about our conversation, why is what I said admissible?

When the police detain/arrest you they have to let you know that anything you say can affect you in court, since TFL officers are not police, they take advantage of that to get you to say self incriminating details. 

It's one aspect I find frustrating. I'm very new to this so I'm asking any sorts of questions so I understand how I can defend myself in the future.

don't take me asking these questions as avoiding responsibility.

I just need as much information as possible to know how to approach this 

This was the first letter I received from them not long following the incident

 

my appeal 11-11-2023.pdf

[honeybee13]

Did you use AI to write what you told TfL? It's in American. It's better to write in your own words, so if you want to draft something we can help you to refine it. You need to get on with it though, with a court date looming. 

I'll have another look when I'm not on a phone. 

HB

[Grotesque]

53 minutes ago, SusMeist3r said:

Also I don't understand how they can associate me with the previous 68 offences even if they time they line up is very similar, they dont have cctv of me doing it so how would they know?

Unfortunately, they're inferable offences.

This may also be due, in their eyes, to the unlikelihood of a 5—10-year-old travelling around London that frequently.

(Note that a zip card's journey history is only held eight weeks after the journey.)

Edited February 19 by Grotesque

[honeybee13]

A couple of thoughts.

I think trying to argue legalities with TfL could be tricky because they usually get things right. I think you were reported for prosecution because they can only charge a penalty fare if they stop you in person. 

As far as I know, it isn't for TfL to prove it was you who travelled on the 68 journeys and more for you to prove it wasn't, but I expect others will comment. 

As Bazza said, you need to convince TfL that you're sincere about regretting what you did and changing your ways. If not, it may not end well. 

HB

[dx100uk]

1 hour ago, SusMeist3r said:

The truth is I felt very justified that day to use since I was in a new job that didn't pay per hour

ouch.

can we see the SJPN stuff please (one mass PDF only)

 

[SusMeist3r]

I have an apology draft at the moment that I need to consider writing very carefully 

 

I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing to express my sincere apologies for my actions on 2/11/2023 that resulted in the fare evasion prosecution issued against me. I understand the importance of adhering to the rules and regulations set by TFL, and I deeply regret my past behaviour.

I would like to provide some context for my actions, though I understand that this does not excuse them. On the day in question, I did not have enough money on my debit card to pay for transportation for a return journey,  which was a requirement of my then job and was traveling for those purposes.

I was a newly joined commission-only paid salesman at the time and was in the process of learning a new skill which requires me to learn very quickly or I wouldn’t get paid. It put me under a large amount of stress and anxiety which resulted in me making a foolish decision that day since I wasn’t getting paid for another week .

I also have existing student debt from when I left The University of Leeds back during my course in 2022 of around £3000 that I’m still trying to pay off. These factors led me to cut corners in a desperate attempt which is completely unjustifiable and I shouldn’t have continued the way I was.

In no way do I intend to justify my actions, but I believe it is important for you to understand the context surrounding this incident.

I now fully recognize the impact that fare evasion has on the overall functioning economy of the public transport industry and the importance of every passenger contributing towards keeping it running.

My actions were not a deliberate attempt to evade responsibility, but rather a desperate lapse in judgment that I deeply regret. There are people out in the world doing much worse than me that pay for transport day to day therefore it's inexcusable.

To amend this, I am willing to pay the full amount of the fare, along with any associated fines, to settle this matter promptly out of court. I assure you that this incident is not reflective of my character, and that behaviour like this will never happen again in the future.

I now understand the importance of maintaining the integrity of public transport systems and am genuinely sorry for any inconvenience my actions may have caused. I hope that you will consider my apology and take into account my commitment to rectifying this situation.

Thank you for your time and understanding.

Edited February 19 by dx100uk
spell checked

[honeybee13]

Thank you.

I apologise for asking but is that really how you write? Without wishing to sound harsh, it still sounds like AI with the odd Americanism. I'm not sure it would convince TfL either.

If you want to try and make this go away, it needs to be from you, maybe from the heart, to persuade TfL to drop the court case. No AI, if I can spot it, TfL will see it a mile off because they will have seen hundreds of them.

HB

[honeybee13]

To add to what I said, I think TfL would wonder how 68 uses of the card were a lapse in judgement.

Also, you're talking to them as if you're in charge when you say you're willing to pay the fare, etc. At this point, they're in charge and taking court action and you need to ask them if they will allow you to pay outstanding fares, etc.

HB

[SusMeist3r]

It wasn't a momentary lapse in judgement at all, but I have to show them somehow that I didn't understand the severity of fare evasion on transport overall and why it's so important to pay.

 

[SusMeist3r]

Should I be mentioning  I was using the card many times to save towards paying my loan off as the main reason?

[honeybee13]

Do you think TfL will accept it as a reason for not paying whichever loan it is? You seem to be saying that other passengers should subsidise you.

HB

[SusMeist3r]

From what I hear from this forum, TFL doesn't frankly about any reason except their money, so what else can I really say, we're only human. We don't see everything logically

 

[SusMeist3r]

Hello and if you’re reading this I hope everything is going very well for you. I’m writing to talk about my actions on 2/11/2023 that resulted in the fare evasion prosecution issued against me.

I want to provide some honest context for why what I thought at the time was the right thing to do was absolutely not, though I understand that this does not excuse it in any way. On that day, I didn’t have enough money on my debit card to pay for my work-related travel,  which was a daily requirement of my last job and was travelling for that reason. I was a newly joined commission-only paid salesman at the time and was in the process of learning a new skill which requires me to learn very quickly or I wouldn’t get paid at all. It put me under a large amount of stress and anxiety which resulted in me making a foolish decision that day since I wasn’t getting paid for another week . I also have existing student debt from when I left The University of Leeds back during my course in 2022 of around £3000 that I’m still trying to pay off, a decision I still deeply regret. These factors made me deliberatley cut corners in a desperate attempt to repay that loan faster, which is frankly unjustifiable and It's my responsibility to ensure I'm paying like everyone else.

I now fully realise the impact that fare evasion has on the overall economy of the public transport industry and the importance of everyone supporting its service. It wouldn’t be fair for people to not pay if the whole transport system is directly funded by the people themselves. My actions were not a deliberate attempt to evade responsibility, but rather my ignorance got the better of me as back then I believed I wasn’t doing any harm to anybody. There are people out in the world doing much worse than me that pay for transport day to day therefore it's inexcusable.

I’m going to pay the full amount of the fare, along with any associated fines, and would very much ask for the chance to settle this matter out of court. I assure you that this incident is not in any way reflective of my character or attitude towards authority, and that behaviour like this will never happen again in the future. I’ve only been paying for transport with my contactless card since then and have been before that, I really don’t want a criminal conviction to mirror the ignorant decisions of my younger self.

I now understand the importance of maintaining the integrity of public transport systems and am genuinely sorry for the damage my actions have caused. I hope that you will consider my apology and take into account my commitment to making this better.

Thank you for your time and understanding.

[honeybee13]

 I would cut the first sentence, it sounds like AI.

I or others will comment later on the rest of it. Did you write this yourself?

HB

[SusMeist3r]

Okay.

How else am I meant to make a introduction without being robotic? You have to be formal right?

Yes I used a template originally from another case but changed as much sentences as possible to reflect what I would write, it's not easy writing apology letters if you're only sorry you got caught.