Natwest taking me to court ***All 3 Claims Discontinued***

[texanbar]

Thxs CitizenB

 

I'll do some more reading - does anyone have any experience/advice on how this usually plays out?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

x:)x

[citizenB]

Have a word with andyorch, texan.

[gezwee]

Tex

 

Would love to offer some advice on this but I'm struggling for caselaw at the mo........ in the back of my mind I remember this contradicts parts 19 & 20 [representatives and counters] but I'm buggered if I can find the source of what I'm looking for. Hoping the mere mention of it will point someone else in the right direction to assist.

 

Gez

[texanbar]

Tex

 

Would love to offer some advice on this but I'm struggling for caselaw at the mo........ in the back of my mind I remember this contradicts parts 19 & 20 [representatives and counters] but I'm buggered if I can find the source of what I'm looking for. Hoping the mere mention of it will point someone else in the right direction to assist.

 

Gez

 

Hey Gez and thanks so much for replying,

 

I've been scanning some of the threads on here and will keep doing so - many thanks for your pointers.

 

x:)x

[gezwee]

Hi Tex

 

Pretty sure Andy is off looking for the same info, in essence its the same claim, same defendant [joint and several], same particulars........... usually see these issued at the same time and joined, but with yours they seem to have set a precendent and delayed service on 2nd defendant.

 

Have you applied for costs from previous yet?

 

Gez

[texanbar]

Hi Gez,

 

Okay - understand completely and didn't want to hassle Andy unnecessarily I've been gemming up on the joint and several angle so think I'm (we're) confident about that. Regarding the costs, maybe this is where we are going wrong and letting NW off without any hassle from us at all

 

I'm still compiling the costs as this has been going on now for almost 3 years (initial claim from NW started in January 2009)! so look as though I may be running into hundreds if not a few thousand here.

 

Kindest regards,

Tex

x:)x

[gezwee]

Hi tex

 

In all honesty I think you need to get the costs application in sooner rather than later so it can be used as a part 20 counter should this proceed beyond December allocation. God knows how this will play out as essentially you would be asking the court to be joined and also requesting NW be joined as co-defendant/claimant............ thats why the buggers don't usually try it on.... may be enough to go down the consent/Tomlin route and put this to bed once and for all though.

 

As for NW and their intransigence........ if you need a WS let me know

 

Gez

[gezwee]

Hi tex

 

In all honesty I think you need to get the costs application in sooner rather than later so it can be used as a part 20 counter should this proceed beyond December allocation. God knows how this will play out as essentially you would be asking the court to be joined and also requesting NW be joined as co-defendant/claimant............ thats why the buggers don't usually try it on.... may be enough to go down the consent/Tomlin route and put this to bed once and for all though.

 

As for NW and their intransigence........ if you need a WS let me know

 

Check your e-mail for the link, couldnt leave it up for too long

 

Gez

[texanbar]

Hi Gez,

 

Yep got it thank-you. Okay, I'll work on the costs over the next couple of days and get this in. Hopefully Andy may be in touch by then as well.

 

Kind regards

Tex

x:)x

[citizenB]

tex, you might need to send Andy a pm and a link to your thread - ignore that, I see he is keeping an eye on things for you

[AndyOrch]

Hi Tex

 

You need to concentrate on 2 matters here, firstly check with the Court they have in fact made application for SJ, if so you need a copy of the application and WS in support of.Secondly and this is the reason why I suggested the wasted costs element which is vital, you must have this application in and finalised for said coming hearing.

They have used the SJ threat to force you to reconsider but they are not aware (I assume of your impending WC claim).You may not be in time now for this issue to be dealt with at the same hearing (hence my earlier posts of having ready) but it will be lodged and the DJ aware of it. As Gez as guessed my next move which was to use it as a final threat in case they did try this move on you.

 

Let me know as soon as you have details of the SJ application.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

tex, you might need to send Andy a pm and a link to your thread - ignore that, I see he is keeping an eye on things for you

 

[texanbar]

Dear Andy - I know you always come through for me

 

Okay, I shall phone courts first thing tomorrow and check if they have made any SJ application. You can bet your bottom dollar they won't be putting in the SJ until the very last moment, as per the skeleton argument they put in 3 days before the hearing

 

Andy - you're right, they have no idea at all about my WC - so plan of action from my end will be to finalise these and post them up here ready for feedback. Hopefully, as Gez has mentioned, this can be put to bed once and for all!

 

Thanks for your tremendous support - I truly would not know how we would be getting through this without your help.

 

With warm wishes

tex

x:)x

Edited November 28, 2011 by texanbar

[texanbar]

Hi Tex

 

You need to concentrate on 2 matters here, firstly check with the Court they have in fact made application for SJ, if so you need a copy of the application and WS in support of.Secondly and this is the reason why I suggested the wasted costs element which is vital, you must have this application in and finalised for said coming hearing.

They have used the SJ threat to force you to reconsider but they are not aware (I assume of your impending WC claim).You may not be in time now for this issue to be dealt with at the same hearing (hence my earlier posts of having ready) but it will be lodged and the DJ aware of it. As Gez as guessed my next move which was to use it as a final threat in case they did try this move on you.

 

Let me know as soon as you have details of the SJ application.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

 

Dear all/Andy,

 

Okay hubby phoned up the courts yesterday who confirmed they have not (as of yesterday's date) received any application for a summary judgment. Mr Tex also asked if we could have the transcripts for the strike out hearing and was advised they only hold the hearing on a tape. If we want the transcripts we have to use a referred transcriber and pay the appropriate costs. The only reason we did this was because the DJ specifically said to IM's representative to not bring a 3rd claim to her courts and it would not be looked at all favourably. Andy is this worth doing or will we have a good enough defence regarding the 'joint and several' angle?

 

I will get my breakdown of wasted costs on here by this evening.

 

All the best,

x:)x

[determindator]

Good morning Tex. I had an identical Court case senario with NW. I counter claimed with a refund of charges using the unfairness reasons, available on this site for the standard reclaim of Bank charges and also looking at the Martin Lewis site for comparison, and my defence was that I had tried many times to come to an arrangement to clear the debt which could only be done by stopping the charges and interest and refund so the debt did not continue to grow. I'm being simplistic as when it comes to presenting your case, being confident in the fundamental reason of why you are in Court in the first place, I feel the Judge can grasp the situation in it's entirety straight away. You will have your own sequence of events that have caused you to be in this position. It can be useful for the soul when being bombarded by legal advice and law to bullitt point your personal sequence of events that has caused you both to be in this position with the Bank, to help with presenting your case. Lots of information can be over whelming. Your thread has over 400 posts and you will have gathered great advice and information over the last two years, like claiming back your costs.

 

The Bank charges were refunded and stopped and an affordable repayment arrangement was put in place. I did not have to pay costs. I even made an appeal after the award (which the Judge said I was not given permission to do!) It was to resubmit a recalc on the refund given. A solicitor sent the appeal in and I had time given to me to listen to my appeal. The Judge granted my appeal! I then rec'd a date to go to Court again. So you see the appeal option is there. Although I didn't get any extra money from the appeal case (to do with the wording put in my first poc which said 'in full and final settlement' so case law came in) it was heard and I did not have to pay any costs. Five years or less and the amount you owe (i'm guessing when a debt is in the region of 10k but would all depend on your ability to pay) seems to be the main factors of whether a charging order is given. If you can offer a repayment which brings you within that time scale you should be able to avoid a charging order. If a co is given, the quicker it's paid the quicker you get rid of it. Shoosmiths or Nat West are not in the business of repossessing homes unnecessarily. The main thing a Judge wants to see is a genuine attempt to repay money which has been loaned initially.

 

I will keep up with your progress. X

Edited November 30, 2011 by determindator

[caro]

Dear all/Andy,

 

Okay hubby phoned up the courts yesterday who confirmed they have not (as of yesterday's date) received any application for a summary judgment. Mr Tex also asked if we could have the transcripts for the strike out hearing and was advised they only hold the hearing on a tape. If we want the transcripts we have to use a referred transcriber and pay the appropriate costs. The only reason we did this was because the DJ specifically said to IM's representative to not bring a 3rd claim to her courts and it would not be looked at all favourably. Andy is this worth doing or will we have a good enough defence regarding the 'joint and several' angle?

 

I will get my breakdown of wasted costs on here by this evening.

 

All the best,

x:)x

 

I would be inclined to get the transcript. If you get the same judge they may or may not remember what they said, but if you get a new one, then you have evidence to back you up. You can always add the cost to your wasted costs.

[texanbar]

Dear all,

 

Big apologies for the delay in posting up my wasted costs - unfortunately, I have made myself quite ill with the worry of all this and ended up in bed with migraines for the past few days

 

Anyway, moving onwards and upwards,

 

There has been an enormous amount of movement since my last posting last week and I will go through these as two separate posts, this post will be the first draft of my wasted costs and the next post will be about NW Summary Judgment and WS.

 

 

 

Wasted costs (1st draft)

These have been taken after reading several posts on wasted costs and the amounts placed under each section. Please let me know if the amounts and/or time I have placed is too much/too little...

 

 

WASTED COSTS APPLICATION - FIRST DRAFT

The Claimant commenced proceedings in relation to an agreement regulated under The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The proceedings constituted re-litigation and were an abuse of process. The first and second set of proceedings were defended and the Defendant applied to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out. Currently a third set of proceedings are going through?

 

At all times the Defendant was a Litigant in Person within the meaning of Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975 and time spent by the Defendant is charged herein at an hourly rate of £18.00.

 

The nature of the case being one of re-litigation required the Defendant to spend time in locating and examining the documents and other papers which related to the proceedings of 2009 which had been begun by the original creditor on 05 January 2009 and have continued until December 2011 by the Claimant.

 

The Defendant was obliged to spend time in considering and understanding numerous strands of law including the law of consumer credit, the law of limitation and practice and procedure in the County Court which was achieved through internet and library research.

 

The Defendant was obliged to spend time in drawing his defence and application to defend and strike out in a way which complied with the relevant rules and practice directions of the CPR. The Defendant was further obliged to defend a second set of proceedings brought by the Claimant on 06 July 2011 despite receiving a Notice of Discontinuance on 07 April 2011 and its effect upon the litigation and his consequential rights and obligations to include his rights and obligations upon the matter of costs and the relevant rules and practice directions of the CPR in reference to the detailed assessments of costs as applied to Litigants in Person.

 

The following is a statement of the work done in the course of the proceedings. Where there is a charge for time spent, the amount of time recorded as spent represents the Defendants fair estimate of the amount of time spent by her.

 

Date

Description

 

Hours of work claimed £

 

05.01.09

Particulars of first claim received from Claimant

 

1

 

14.01.09

Acknowledgement of Service submitted to court

 

1

 

30.01.09

Embarrassed defence prepared and submitted to court

 

2

 

09.01.09

CPR 31.14 request letter sent to Claimant

 

1

 

09.01.09

CCA 77 request letter sent to Claimant 09.01.09

 

1

 

25.03.09

Allocation Questionnaire completed and submitted to court

 

1

 

19.06.01

Amended POC received from Claimant

 

1

 

06.07.09

Amended defence prepared and submitted to court

 

4

 

14.07.09

Offer made Pursuant to Part 36 CPR received from Claimant

 

1

 

17.07.09

Defendant's response letter regarding Part 36 CPR sent to Claimant

 

2

 

29.08.09

Rejection letter from Claimant - resent Defendant's proposal of repayment

 

1

 

04.11.09

Defendant's Notice of Application to strike out (N244)

 

PAID: court Fee £40.00 4

 

 

08.02.09

Hearing date for N244 application

 

23.12.09

Order from Court the Claim is stayed

 

09.04.11

Notice of Discontinuance received from Claimant

 

 

 

 

Date

Description

 

Hours of work claimed £

 

09.07.11

Particulars of second claim received from Claimant

 

1

 

12.07.11

Defendant's Notice of Application to strike out (N244)

 

PAID: court Fee £40.00

 

2

 

12.07.11

Acknowledgement of Service submitted to court

 

1

 

08.08.11

Defendants defence preparation and submitted to court

 

4

 

18.10.11

N244 Hearing date

 

17.08.11

Letter to Claimants solicitor regarding 2 companies suing for same debt

 

1

 

05.10.11

Particulars of third claim received from Claimant [against husband]

 

1

 

18.10.11

Hearing (2nd claim) - case struck out

 

12.07.11

Husband [Defendant] Notice of Application to strike out (N244)

 

PAID: court Fee £75.00

 

4

 

12.07.11

Claimants lodge application for Summary Judgment to be heard at same time as N244 claim

 

 

20.12.11

Hearing date for N244 and Summary Judgment

 

 

TOTAL

 

34 hours x £18.00 = £612

 

 

 

 

Work Done

Searching for and locating the papers and other documents relating to the 1993 proceedings (4 hrs) £72

 

Research regarding consumer credit law, law of limitation law regarding re-litigation (15 hrs) £270.00

 

Receiving and considering Notice of Discontinuance (1 hr) £18.00

 

Research regarding CPR 38.7 and CPR 44.12 (10 hrs) £180.00

 

Research regarding detailed assessment proceedings and Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975 (10 hrs) £180.00

 

Preparing bill of costs and notice of commencement of costs proceedings (6 hrs) £108.00

 

Time spent in telephone calls, letters and emails written and received (200 hrs) (Andy, I have over 400 posts on this thread, so conservatively if I spent 1/2 hour per post... knowing I have spent so more many hours upon hours each and every night) £3600.00 !!

 

Summary

Costs payable by the Claimant £5040.00

Disbursements (court fee) £75.00

Total costs payable to the Defendant £5115.00

 

 

Look forward to receiving some feedback.

x:)x

Edited December 3, 2011 by texanbar

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Looks fine at first glance Tex no doubt

the others will take a lok as soon as the

can.

 

Brig,

[texanbar]

Now for the rest of my post.

 

We have received from NW their SJ application and WS. Furthermore the court has also agreed the following:

 

Notice of Hearing

 

TAKE NOTICE that the enclosed application will be heard at the existing hearing on

 

20 December 2011 at 10.00am at NCC

 

Please Note: This case may be release to another Judge, possibly at a different Court

 

PLEASE NOTE: IF YOU ARE SUBMITTING DOCUMENTS IN RESPECT OF A HEARING PLEASE ENSURE THAT THE CASE NUMBER AND HEARING DATE CLEARLY ENDORSED SO THAT YOUR CORRESPONDENCE CAN BE ATTACHED TO THE FILE IN TIME FOR THE HEARING.

 

Application Notice - N244 IM

 

Point 3 - What order are you asking the court to make and why?

 

The CLaimant applies pursuant to CPR Part 24 for summary judgment in the amount claimed.

 

Because the Defendant has no real prospects of success in defending the claim and the CLaimant knows of no other reason why the claim shoud be disposed of at a trial.

 

In addition, the Claimant seeks an order that the Defendant pays the costs of the proceedings, including the costs of the application, such costs to be assessed at the hearing.

 

THE ATTENTION OF THE DEFENDANT IS DRAWN TO CPR PART 24.5(1) AND THE REQUIREMENT THEREIN THAT IF THE DEFENDANT WISHES TO RELY UPON WRITTEN EVIDENCE AT THE HEARING HE SHOULD FILE AND SERVE IT AT LEAST 7 DAYS BEFORE THE SUMMARY JUDGMENT HEARING.

 

I have scanned in the witness statement.

 

I look forward to receiving invaluable advice -

 

From our point of view, are we missing something of real value here, or as usual are IM barking up the wrong tree as since receiving the NoD, and subsequent claim being struck out against me, does this therefore not apply to the joint/several party, and hence Mr Tex is also associated with the NoD and claim being struck out.

 

Guidance would be deeply appreciated, as from our point of view, the claim fell apart when IM issued the NoD and didn't receive permission from the courts to re-open the case regardless of the defendants.

 

Here is the scanned WS:

wsIM031211.pdf

Edited December 3, 2011 by texanbar
POSTED BEFORE FINISHING

[texanbar]

Hi everyone,

 

Sorry forgot to put something else on here:

 

We received from the courts the forms to complete for tape transcript with a list of approved transcribers from the Tape Transcription Panel. Again any advice would be appreciated.

 

Kind regards

x:)x

[citizenB]

Righto, well if you are going to rebut this in anyway and I believe you should.. then you need to have your WS to both the court and the opposition by the 13th of December.. so you dont have too much time.

 

I also notice that you dont show any travel time, postage, printer costs, paper used for bundles etc.. on your Costs Statement.. these are all reclaimable under disbursements

[AndyOrch]

If parties have joint liability, then they are each liable up to the full amount of the relevant obligation. So if a husband and wife take a loan from a bank, the loan agreement will normally provide that they are to be "jointly liable" for the full amount. If one party dies, disappears or is declared bankrupt, the other remains fully liable. Accordingly, the bank must sue all living co-promisors, for the full amount. However, in suing, the creditor has only one course of action, i.e., the creditor can sue for each debt only once. If, for example, there are three partners, and the creditor sues all of them for the outstanding loan amount and one of them pays the liability, the creditor cannot recover further amounts from the partners who did not contribute to the liability.

 

Tex have you a copy of the application and agreement with both your signatures clearly shown?

 

Regards

 

Andy

[gezwee]

Tex

 

Do you have the original poc still posted on here [joint o/d + loan] from initial claim?........ keep trying to check but Cag keeps logging me off arghhhhh, if its on here can you let me know the post # please.

 

Gez

[AndyOrch]

By agreement(s) entered into between the

'

 

Claimant and Defendant, the Defendant has

failed to pay the sum of xxxxxxx.

The Claimant has requested payment but the

Defendant has failed to pay the full sum

demanded. The Claimant claims the sum of

xxxxx and interest under $.69 of the

 

County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per

annum from

 

 

02/0112009 until judgment or

 

sooner payment

 

Costs. The claim does not

 

include issues under the Huu

'ian Rights Act 1998.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Andyorch

[gezwee]

Cheers Andy

 

Any mention of the individual account numbers at any time during case? Sorry, I know I'm being a pain in the butt, lol......... I'm sure you can see where this is going with a NW/RBS split claim and additional points to rebuttal WS

 

Gez