why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[diddydicky]

so this cannot have been a regulated loan? was this a secured loan (mortgage on the property)?

[Dotty50]

Hi,

Isn't this thread getting a bit 'Off Piste'?

[michellej]

yes was secured on property as second charge mortgage ,... £31k ,... £3700(restricted credit) sent as cheque to pay off credit card , £1400 arrears on first mortgage , and £25,900 advanced into my account (unrestricted),.. so should of been part regulated ,& part unregulated

[diddydicky]

yes was secured on property as second charge mortgage ,... £31k ,... £3700(restricted credit) sent as cheque to pay off credit card , £1400 arrears on first mortgage , and £25,900 advanced into my account (unrestricted),.. so should of been part regulated ,& part unregulated

 

i see, must admit then out of my experience

[Surfer01]

Rather that scroll through 91 pages of info, do we still have to send The fee of £1 when requesting a true copy as I have an ongoing CCA issue at present and they refsue to send me a true copy? All I get is a copy of the faxed agrement that was sent to the finance company. Obviously this will not have the T & Cs on the rear. Thanks.

[vint1954]

yes was secured on property as second charge mortgage ,... £31k ,... £3700(restricted credit) sent as cheque to pay off credit card , £1400 arrears on first mortgage , and £25,900 advanced into my account (unrestricted),.. so should of been part regulated ,& part unregulated

Mortgages do not come under the CCA 1974. Securred loans do and the limit of £25k was removed in April 2006.

 

6 April 2008: the Office of Fair Trading’s (OFT’s) new strengthened licensing regime was introduced, the Consumer Credit Appeals Tribunal (for appeals against the OFT’s licensing decisions) was established, the financial limit (of £25,000) was removed so all new credit agreements (unless specifically exempt) are regulated, and the Unfair Relationships Test was extended to all existing credit agreements.

Edited January 16, 2010 by vint1954
Additionaal info

[enoughisenough]

Any ideas what regulates a secured loan over 25k taken out in may 2006? The commencement orders seem to indicate gradual implementation over 2007/2008 for the CCA 2006.

[vint1954]

Any ideas what regulates a secured loan over 25k taken out in may 2006? The commencement orders seem to indicate gradual implementation over 2007/2008 for the CCA 2006.

 

6 April 2008: the Office of Fair Trading’s (OFT’s) new strengthened licensing regime was introduced, the Consumer Credit Appeals Tribunal (for appeals against the OFT’s licensing decisions) was established, the financial limit (of £25,000) was removed so all new credit agreements (unless specifically exempt) are regulated, and the Unfair Relationships Test was extended to all existing credit agreements.

[michellej]

Mortgages do not come under the CCA 1974. Securred loans do and the limit of £25k was removed in April 2006.

 

6 April 2008: the Office of Fair Trading’s (OFT’s) new strengthened licensing regime was introduced, the Consumer Credit Appeals Tribunal (for appeals against the OFT’s licensing decisions) was established, the financial limit (of £25,000) was removed so all new credit agreements (unless specifically exempt) are regulated, and the Unfair Relationships Test was extended to all existing credit agreements.

 

Hi Vint , thanks for your informed input,... It was a secured loan , secured on our property ,.. a secured loan till the solicitor pointed out that it was in fact a mortgage ,.. if I was to take another mortgage (*second mortgage) then I would of just remortgaged so only 1 morgage in place ,.. plus the way it was advanced says to me that it was a secured loan as I thought it was , ,... you have possibly highlighted another concern ,..

[Bigdebtor]

Can anyone help? I recollect seeing a letter in a thread from someone in OFT which stated along the lines that statements showing all charges etc. applied should be sent as part of the response to this 77/78 CCA request.

 

This would suggest you can get what you need to chase up unfair charges for £1 and not have to pay £10 for SAR. Anyone recollect this post? If so what post no and what thread?

[vint1954]

Can anyone help? I recollect seeing a letter in a thread from someone in OFT which stated along the lines that statements showing all charges etc. applied should be sent as part of the response to this 77/78 CCA request.

 

This would suggest you can get what you need to chase up unfair charges for £1 and not have to pay £10 for SAR. Anyone recollect this post? If so what post no and what thread?

No, it is a statement of account at the time of CCA request, no over the history of the account.

[Scouserlad]

Hi

 

Can i please have some help on my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/213721-john-natwest-moorecroft-robinson.html

 

Regards

John

[michellej]

hi what if outside the CCA regulations?

[MDK]

I am getting very confused now, I thought you could use ...

 

"This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77 through S79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation this act requires you to supply. "

Can someone please point me to the link for the correct template to request a CCA and if I have sent the above to a Credit card company recently what do I do now?

[foolishgirl]

MDK, the CCA only applies to regulated credit agreements eg. credit cards etc. This is maybe what michellej is referring to?

 

The link for a CCA request is here:

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

 

Don't sign your letter, print or use digital sig, send a £1.00 PO (not cheques), send Rec. Del. They have 12+2 days to produce the copy agreement.

[MDK]

Thank you foolishgirl, I am trying to get my head round all this and having a bit of a problem, thank you for the help

[BornAgainBiker]

hello, in relation to #1 of this thread, i'm a little confused. is it suggesting that a normal cca request with the £1 fee, allows a creditor to botch together a signature from one document, terms from another, interest from another etc. allowing them to form what an agreement might have looked like if they had not found or were not happy with the original document?

 

i have received a copy of a tesco agreement which is 'supposed' to be conforming to cca 1974. however, i've read somewhere that microfich copies might not be valid. if this is so, how would i know if the copy i have is from a microfich file? can anyone help with this? thanks BAB

[vint1954]

hello, in relation to #1 of this thread, i'm a little confused. is it suggesting that a normal cca request with the £1 fee, allows a creditor to botch together a signature from one document, terms from another, interest from another etc. allowing them to form what an agreement might have looked like if they had not found or were not happy with the original document?

 

i have received a copy of a tesco agreement which is 'supposed' to be conforming to cca 1974. however, i've read somewhere that microfich copies might not be valid. if this is so, how would i know if the copy i have is from a microfich file? can anyone help with this? thanks BAB

Different criteria for OC responding to s78 requests, rather than documents in court.

 

For s78, they can reconstruct the agreement, must be a true copy, but they will have to prove it one day.

[atom02]

Hi, can anyone please help with thoughts on my dilemma? My thread (in particular, post number 10) is http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/245201-my-head-hurts-l.html

 

thanks, atom

[RobinWayRobinme]

I posted the following on other thread re cases on hold re test cases and got no replies at all. Is there any opinions on the following approach to actually get a copy of the executed credit agreement (avoiding test cases being cited and not having to pay £1) as this is putting the creditor on notice that they have not fulfilled their obligations at the outset and until they provide a copy of the executed agreement the agreement is improperly executed, inter alia, s.63(5) and unenforceable according to s.127(4)(a). Its not a request for information its asking for a copy of the executed agreement bearing the signature of the creditor required by statute.

 

Any views? Lets face it, how many times when you get a reply to a SAR do you see a record or copy letter that shows that they have complied with the copy of the executed agreement

R

 

However, just to throw something on the table for debate.

 

Could s.63 be a useful weapon to get a copy of the original credit agreement as if you state that you have never been supplied with a copy of the executed agreement bearing the signature of both creditor and debtor, its improperly executed and according to s.127(4) "The Court shall not make an enforcement order...."

 

As I see it, this thread was started because of the test cases relating to requests for copy credit agreements for information purposes and not proof of enforceabilty. Why can't we go back a step and write to the creditor and say dear mr creditor, you have not provided a copy of the executed credit agreement, inter alia, s.63. Please send me a copy of the executed agreement now to fulfil your obligations set by statute that, to date, you have not complied with. I would point out to you that until this is done, the agreement is improperly executed etc etc...

 

Just a thought. Any views (and this wont cost £1)

R

[vint1954]

You could also try stateing that you should be sent a copy of the original agreement, not reconstructed, when the account is varied, change of APR etc.

 

HHJ Waksman saw it that way also.

[diddydicky]

you cant know that it is improperly executed until you see it!

 

not sending you a copy does not un-execute an agreement

 

if it contained the signatures of both parties and the prescribed terms at the time of signing then it remains executed irrespective of the fact that you have not been sent a copy

[RobinWayRobinme]

you cant know that it is improperly executed until you see it!

 

not sending you a copy does not un-execute an agreement

 

if it contained the signatures of both parties and the prescribed terms at the time of signing then it remains executed irrespective of the fact that you have not been sent a copy

 

The agreement becomes executed at the time the creditor signs it. But as I read it s63 requires the creditor within the specified period, depending on the type of agreement, otherwise its an IEA from the outset not temporarily unenforceable following an information request under s77 or 78. Thus s63 is not an information request acording to s77 or 78 and subject to all the recent test cases as McGuffick only applied to s77 and s78.

 

Further, s127(4) clearly states that "the court shall not make an enforcement order under s65(1) in the case of a cancellable agreement if -"

 

(a) a provision of section 62 or 63 was not complied with, and the creditor or

owner did not give a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other

document referred to in it, to the debtor or hirer before the commencement

of the proceedings in which the order is sought,

 

Therefore IMO, it can be argued that this is nothing to do with any of the recent test cases and falling into the arena of reconstituted or actual copy. It is putting the creditor on notice that they have not complied with the CCA at the outset and provided a copy of the executed agreement bearing the signature of the creditor as this is the only proof positive that the creditor did in fact execute the agreement. If this was not the meaning of s63 then there would be no need for s127(4) would there?

R

[vint1954]

I think the question was, have you seen the agreement. If not you are unable to assertain execution.

[RobinWayRobinme]

I think the question was, have you seen the agreement. If not you are unable to assertain execution.

 

Yes, if you have not seen or been provided with a copy of the executed agreement containing the signature of the creditor. I know this argument only applies to cancellable agreements where debtor signs and returns for creditor to sign, credit card applications will generally fit with this.

 

Whats your opinion on this Vint or anyone else that may look in.