Sold pregnant animal - is it lawful?

[shamanx]

Good morning,

 

Last Friday, myself and my partner bought three rats to keep our current rat company (they are social animals, and her sister had recently died). We introduced them to each other and all went well.

 

After a few days, we noticed that the older of the new rats was growing in size rather rapidly. We took her to the vet and he confirmed our suspicion - that she was pregnant. We separated her into a small spare cage, and last night she had a litter of five babies.

 

Now, from a personal standpoint this is great! I can hear them squeaking away as I type; they are lovely little creatures, and I'm happy that we have them.

 

From a financial standpoint, we now have to buy a larger cage, more food, and other bits and pieces for the newborns - we can't separate the mother from the babies for at least a month.

 

Somebody on a rat forum mentioned that selling pregnant animals is illegal, and that we could probably go back to the pet shop (Pets at Home) and demand a cage and provisions. I've scoured the Internet and haven't been able to find any direct evidence of a law against selling pregnant animals; just lots of people on forums commenting that they think it's illegal.

 

So really I'd like to know whether this is such a law, and if so what our rights are surrounding our situation.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jon

Edited December 13, 2008 by shamanx

[Gilbert_O'Sullivan]

I'm not saying anything about rats on here.

[BankFodder]

I think that you should ask the RSPCA. They'll know the answer.

 

Maybe you could come back and let us know. It all adds to our usefulness.

[enamae]

I'm not saying anything about rats on here.

 

Chicken:grin:

[Gilbert_O'Sullivan]

Chicken:grin:

 

[Monty2007]

Good morning,

 

Last Friday, myself and my partner bought three rats to keep our current rat company (they are social animals, and her sister had recently died). We introduced them to each other and all went well.

 

After a few days, we noticed that the older of the new rats was growing in size rather rapidly. We took her to the vet and he confirmed our suspicion - that she was pregnant. We separated her into a small spare cage, and last night she had a litter of five babies.

 

Now, from a personal standpoint this is great! I can hear them squeeking away as I type; they are lovely little creatures, and I'm happy that we have them.

 

From a financial standpoint, we now have to buy a larger cage, more food, and other bits and pieces for the newborns - we can't separate the mother from the babies for at least a month.

 

Somebody on a rat forum mentioned that selling pregnant animals is illegal, and that we could probably go back to the pet shop (Pets at Home) and demand a cage and provisions. I've scoured the Internet and haven't been able to find any direct evidence of a law against selling pregnant animals; just lots of people on forums commenting that they think it's illegal.

 

So really I'd like to know whether this is such a law, and if so what our rights are surrounding our situation.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jon

 

Why buy three rats to keep one company? seems a bit extreme...

 

My view would be that the seller probably did not know that the rat they sold you was pregnant and you would not have any case of compensation against them. Have you incurred any cots or loss through the mummy rat having babies? It could be that you can sell the offspring and actually profit from it.

 

There are a few other rat threads on this forum, so maybe the Mods should have a separate Rat section, I suggest immediately before or after AMEX! (ok it has to be alphabetical but I could not resist that one).

[shamanx]

I think that you should ask the RSPCA. They'll know the answer. Maybe you could come back and let us know. It all adds to our usefulness.

My partner has just phoned the RSPCA, and they don't seem to be sure. The person she spoke to said that she hadn't heard of a law, but she couldn't rule anything out. I'll keep researching.

[shamanx]

Why buy three rats to keep one company? seems a bit extreme...

It's not extreme at all. Naturally, rats live in large social groups. You try living in a small space for years with only one other person to talk to.

 

Have you incurred any cots or loss through the mummy rat having babies?

We're about to. As I said originally, we'll need a new cage, and provisions to keep the rats happy for at least a month.

[Monty2007]

It's not extreme at all. Naturally, rats live in large social groups. You try living in a small space for years with only one other person to talk to..

 

I do and I have, although Mrs Mont is lovely and also kind to animals..

 

We're about to. As I said originally, we'll need a new cage, and provisions to keep the rats happy for at least a month.

 

Have you spoke with the seller? would they take the mother/babies back or contribute to their welfare and upkeep until they can be weaned? You may find that they will cooperate.

 

Do the other rats have names?

[enamae]

Not sure if this applies to all rats or just Show Rats

 

 

http://www.nfrs.org/Rat%20Selling%20(General%20Guidelines)%20V%5B1%5D%5B1%5D.3.pdf

[Monty2007]

Not sure if this applies to all rats or just Show Rats

 

 

http://www.nfrs.org/Rat%20Selling%20(General%20Guidelines)%20V%5B1%5D%5B1%5D.3.pdf

 

Some excellent secondary research there enamae, the National Rat Society looks like your best bet OR an N1 claim form.

[BankFodder]

The NFRS rules may only be guidelines which apply to their own members. Certainly worth asking them.

 

I thought that this subject was dealt with by the BBA. I had no idea that they were competing with the NFRS.

Live some, learn some.

[shamanx]

Not sure if this applies to all rats or just Show Rats

 

Well found, thank you. I'll give them a shout and see what I can find out.

[disillusioned kid]

Heya,

 

Unfortunately the debate as to whether selling a pregnant animal is hazy - especially if you consider that the pet shop may not have known the she was at the time of purchase. A rat has the gestation period of 21-23 days which means that sometimes it's not obvious that she is pregnant until she's a couple of days away from having the litter. Also a female rat can mate as soon as she's given birth and can concieve at 5 weeks old. Perhaps you could look at whether she's an adult or a kitten herself, most chain pet shops - ie Pets @ Home have suppliers where the rats are costantly bred to make sure that there is always a supply of little cute furries to be bought (these are usually very stressful, unhealthy and disgusting places but that's me digressing) so usually they sell kittens and youngsters. If she's an adult however you have to query as to why she was being sold and where she came from, there is a possibility that she's one of the breeding rats who's been sold accidentally which means that maybe you do have a right to complain or at least request help with the provisions you need.

 

I can understand why you would buy 3 rats - especially if they are of different ages, rats are very, very social animals and even though you might spend all the time you can with them they still need other rats to groom, play with and curl up with otherwise they can become ill, depressed and lose all confidence etc. If you have at least 3 rats it means should one become ill and pass on the other 2 rats still have company and therefore are happier and more able to deal with the loss of the other one.

 

According to rat based forums that I have visitted there is quite a strong suggestion that you should go to the pet shop and tell them, request help with provisions and DON'T sell the babies back to them, it's better to find private homes for them than to put them through the pet shop ordeal where they may end up ill, stressed, pregnant etc.

 

For anyone who is thinking of getting rats visit :

 

National Fancy Rat Society (they have a breeders list which means you know your rat is healthy and raised correctly)

 

Fancy Rats | Home (very useful site for information etc)

 

Always try to adopt a rescue rat or buy from a breeder.

 

Take care and good luck

 

PS Why do people post oneliners that are completely pointless?

[Chris1933]

I'm not saying anything about rats on here.

 

:D:D - glad to see you didn't mention your spade!

[IdaInFife]

Each local council will have pet shop liscence conditions but nothing ever mentions about pregnant animals. It is common practice for pregnant rats mice etc to be sold that is why if anyone is ever thinking of buying them is to only buy from a shop where they only keep the same sexes in the same cages

 

Ida x

[poppynurse]

Pets at hom keep them in single sex cages round my way....perhaps happened before they got to the shop

[Gilbert_O'Sullivan]

Oh I can't resist it.

 

C'mon original posting member, you buy a rat that is up the duff and you appear perplexed!

 

Well, my kids had two rabbits years ago and the rabbits wouldn't stop humping.

 

Get this, rats breed like, umm rats!

 

Really, what do you expect?

[Monty2007]

Oh I can't resist it.

 

C'mon original posting member, you buy a rat that is up the duff and you appear perplexed!

 

Well, my kids had two rabbits years ago and the rabbits wouldn't stop humping.

 

Get this, rats breed like, umm rats!

 

Really, what do you expect?

 

I also bought a Guinnea pig when I was 13 and got it home, next day there were 3! I sold the babies and made a handsome profit!

[disillusioned kid]

I'm not sure that you completely understand Shamanx's original query .. it wasn't how is my rat pregnant? or why did this happen to me? It was more whether the pet shop is held accountable for any costs and is there a law to stop pet shops selling pregnant animals. Having any pet is an expense, to suddenly find yourself with more pets and more expenses especially at this time of year must be difficult, with rats you have to seperate them when they are pregnant otherwise the young can get killed because the mum gets stressed at outside attention etc and kills them. If you look at a basic cage at £40 for a decent sized, not shoe box sized cage then add food (mothers and babies eat differently to non- nursing rats), the essential bits like water bottle, bedding, food bowl, some kind of nesting box or place where she'll have her kittens and feel safe.. it all mounts up and at the end of the day Shamanx had an agreement to have 3 rats not 8, there are also vet bills if the mother is young or inexperienced it can cause quite a lot of damage to her (not drawing a diagram here) or she could become ill.. again all costs that he didn't actually sign his name to.. he bought 3 same sex rats with the understanding that that is all he bought. Plus it's very stressful for any animal to be bought and rehomed for the first couple of days, if she was pregnant it will have caused more stress to her and her babies.. if there are laws to stop animal cruelty and people mistreating animals surely putting a pregnant animal through being poked and picked up by strangers, stuffed in a box, tipped into a new environment etc where she becomes more agitated and stressed would be covered by this because it's certainly not kind.

 

I realise that the latter is not part of a consumer concern more one of welfare but at the end of the day it is part of the problem .. stress = illness = cost.

 

It's a shame that when someone asks a question that they are looking for help with there are people who waste their time replying with oneliners, completely useless comments and ones that have the suggestion that the person posting a query is a bit dim. People learn by asking - if you don't have anything practical to say, considering it's a forum, why not go and do something else.

[Monty2007]

I'm not sure that you completely understand Shamanx's original query .. it wasn't how is my rat pregnant? or why did this happen to me? It was more whether the pet shop is held accountable for any costs and is there a law to stop pet shops selling pregnant animals. Having any pet is an expense, to suddenly find yourself with more pets and more expenses especially at this time of year must be difficult, with rats you have to seperate them when they are pregnant otherwise the young can get killed because the mum gets stressed at outside attention etc and kills them. If you look at a basic cage at £40 for a decent sized, not shoe box sized cage then add food (mothers and babies eat differently to non- nursing rats), the essential bits like water bottle, bedding, food bowl, some kind of nesting box or place where she'll have her kittens and feel safe.. it all mounts up and at the end of the day Shamanx had an agreement to have 3 rats not 8, there are also vet bills if the mother is young or inexperienced it can cause quite a lot of damage to her (not drawing a diagram here) or she could become ill.. again all costs that he didn't actually sign his name to.. he bought 3 same sex rats with the understanding that that is all he bought. Plus it's very stressful for any animal to be bought and rehomed for the first couple of days, if she was pregnant it will have caused more stress to her and her babies.. if there are laws to stop animal cruelty and people mistreating animals surely putting a pregnant animal through being poked and picked up by strangers, stuffed in a box, tipped into a new environment etc where she becomes more agitated and stressed would be covered by this because it's certainly not kind.

 

I realise that the latter is not part of a consumer concern more one of welfare but at the end of the day it is part of the problem .. stress = illness = cost.

 

It's a shame that when someone asks a question that they are looking for help with there are people who waste their time replying with oneliners, completely useless comments and ones that have the suggestion that the person posting a query is a bit dim. People learn by asking - if you don't have anything practical to say, considering it's a forum, why not go and do something else.

 

Selling or giving away the babies IS a PRACTICAL solution. Another one does that not involve any financial outlay and will be quick and simple. Take a bucket of water and immerse baby rat's in for a few mins and that's the end of the matter. When we had too many rabbits my dad did it.

 

She would have little legal recourse given the fact that intent would have to be proven. The OP should approach the person she purchased said rat from and let them suggest remedy or compensation before trying to quantify future financial loss due to having the baby rats to look after.

 

Given she actually purchased 3 then the naughty rodents could have got jiggy in the car on the way home.

[Monty2007]

There was probably drink involved too...............

 

[Gilbert_O'Sullivan]

Rats are the Vicky Pollards of the critter world-they like to throw it about.

 

I'm sorry disillusioned kid but if somebody wants a pet then they should undertake research into that creature in order to correctly care for it.

 

A rat having young is not an astonishing event, it's not even surprising.

[Monty2007]

Good morning,

 

Last Friday, myself and my partner bought three rats to keep our current rat company (they are social animals, and her sister had recently died). We introduced them to each other and all went well.

 

 

It went too well!

[Gilbert_O'Sullivan]

It went too well!