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    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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TheCobbettSlayer v NatWest ***WON***


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The crucial part of this is the Standard Disclosure, as the bank must provide a list of ALL the documents relating to the case. This means that they will have to notify details of documents that prove their argument that the charges are lawful, AND documents that support the argument that they are not.

 

If they fail to list any documents that support their defence, then you can make an application to have their defence struck out - as I have done with Bristol & West.

 

Of course, it is very likely that they will fold before December 22nd - but don't count on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm counting on nothing Alan but we'll see.

 

Any ideas what I should be including in my disclosure. The only document that I seem to be relying on is Bank Statements showing the charges being debited and these are already in the possession of the defence

 

Paul

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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You need to include everything that you would wish to rely on in court - so largely it would be the documents that make up the court bundle:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/33060-basic-court-bundle.html

 

My disclosure ran to around 300 documents - of course, you only need to send a list according to the order in your case, but you would need to get the documents together in case they are required.

 

Also, keep receipts for copying etc., and a record of time spent. As the case has been allocated to multi-track, you may need to file an application for costs - especially if you have to issue an application for strike out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I agree with AlanfromDerby - I think the crucial day is Disclosure Day, 22 December. They either have to come up with proof that their charges are

in line with their costs - for each and every item you've claimed for - or they can't present any such case come the day. Keep us posted (I'm sure you will) but I'd expect you'll hear something from them before then.

 

Good luck

westy

Westy

 

 

 

If you like my post, click the scales!!

 

Nov 1 2006 Preliminary letter

21 Feb 2007 - cheque arrived for charges+DEBIT interest +Statutory Interest! Hurray!

Read all about it: natwesttookmymoney - v- NatWest

DONATE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO KEEP THE SITE GOING.

 

What can you claim? Vampiress has a good idea:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/69877-what-can-you-claim.html

Anything I say is just a suggestion. I'm a bigmouth, not a lawyer!

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I believe you will also need a timetable analysis of the history of the case. This is quite a good prompt for court anyway...actually that is included in the Court Bundle, but a very useful tool.

My advice has hardly any legal foundation whatsoever, however you never know it it might just work!

:cool:

 

NatWest Prelim 07.10.206

LBA 21.10.2006

MCOL 30.10.2006

Acknowledgment of Service 06.11.2006

Offer of approx 50% £2200.00 22.11.2006

Full settlement £4500 received 03.01.2007

Smile settled in full

Barclaycard settled in full

RBS Worldwide settled in full

Lloyds TSB settled in full £750.00

Lloyds TSB settled in Full £275.00 11.04.2007

Lloyds TSB business account £1376.00 AQ filed

Lloyds TSB Business account settled in full 21.05.07

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Well - I got back from the Xmas protest and p*** up to find a very nice letter from Cobbetts offering me 75% subject to confidentiality and withdrawal of my claim.

 

I have graciously accepted as an interim payment and will continue until I get the full amount.

 

There will be a turkey in the Shieber household this Christmas:D

 

I'll keep you posted on the rest.

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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Guest ian cognito

Good step forward Paul, keep at 'em obviously having their doubts now!!!

 

Can't you stretch to a goose, tradition and all that.

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I assume the confidentiality clause will be crossed out in your acceptance.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Can't you stretch to a goose, tradition and all that.

 

Actually Jan we are having a goose at the brother in laws. I will now be providing the champagne and caviar.

 

As for confidentiality Caro - as you may have noticed on Friday - I talk too much:D

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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Now the serious stuff.

 

The judge has ordered disclosure by 22nd December. Is it a good idea for either myself or Cobbetts to apply for a stay of the order for a period of say 28 days (as per the option on the AQ) as we may now be able to reach a negotiated settlement?

 

I really hope it wont take that long to reach agreement on the final amount but I really don't want to do a 200 page disclosure unless I absolutely have to.

 

Incidentally, there is a very interesting paragraph in Cobbetts letter regarding refinancing of unauthorised bank borrowing. I'm not going to post it on here just yet as it's crucial to my final settlement and as we all know Big Brother is watching but it might just give some other members a good grounding for claims similar to mine and I will definitely post it once I get it all sorted out.

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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Hi, Paul

 

I would suggest that you don't ask for a stay of the disclosure and, if they apply for one, to vigorously oppose it.

 

Disclosure is the point at which they have to reveal their actual costs

and to advise of the documents they'll be using to defend their charging regime and levels.

 

It's unlikely they will do so because, as well know, the bank's true costs are nowhere near their charges. So they won't want to disclose. But, if they decide to do so, then you (and, I trust, we) will be able to see exactly what they reckon their services and activities are. We'll be able to have a look at it and compare it with the reality - including the evidence in the Northern Ireland report that charges on personal accounts are an important source of income - i other words, they're profiting from their regime, and it's unlawful to do so.

 

Best wishes

 

Westy

Westy

 

 

 

If you like my post, click the scales!!

 

Nov 1 2006 Preliminary letter

21 Feb 2007 - cheque arrived for charges+DEBIT interest +Statutory Interest! Hurray!

Read all about it: natwesttookmymoney - v- NatWest

DONATE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO KEEP THE SITE GOING.

 

What can you claim? Vampiress has a good idea:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/69877-what-can-you-claim.html

Anything I say is just a suggestion. I'm a bigmouth, not a lawyer!

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I'm very tempted to force disclosure as it will certainly help others but to be blunt I'm not going to prejudice my settlement.

 

Just spoken to my dad who used to work for the High Court and he has suggested that I offer Natwest a stay of the disclosure order by consent (we both agree to the stay).

 

I was talking to BF about this on Friday and he agreed that for me to force disclosure would be a real milestone for CAG but not at the expense of delaying my own claim.

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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I'm very tempted to force disclosure as it will certainly help others but to be blunt I'm not going to prejudice my settlement.

 

Just spoken to my dad who used to work for the High Court and he has suggested that I offer NatWest a stay of the disclosure order by consent (we both agree to the stay).

 

I was talking to BF about this on Friday and he agreed that for me to force disclosure would be a real milestone for CAG but not at the expense of delaying my own claim.

 

I can't say I blame you for that Paul - but if they know they have another month (for example) to play with, then the skeptical part of me says that the chances are that they'll drag the negotiations out that long anyway. Full disclosure would be a PITA to go through, but let's face it, it's a much bigger threat to them than it is to you.

 

It's not like they're paying up 75% with the 25% payable on condition of avoiding disclosure is it? :)

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Hi, Paul

 

I may be missing something so please excuse me if I seem thick.

 

You've asked them to explain or justify their charges. It's been a cornerstone of the case that they aren't justifiable. They have failed to provide you with evidence to the contrary. Not just you but thousands of others.

 

You've given them adequate opportunity to discuss your claim meaningfully before you started the action. They didn't take it and you were obliged to commence legal proceedings.

 

I don't understand how not agreeing to a stay of disclosure or opposing it is going to help you. That's first and foremost - you. No-one's asking you to be a martyr nor to prejudice your claim but we'd all, I'm sure, be gobsmacked if they actually went to disclosure and were prepared to justify their charges as realistic reflection of their costs. They have not done so in any case at all so far. No bank has and this site knows of thousands of successful cases, totalling approaching £4 million.

 

So it's on the historic basis that one thinks that you're turning into the home straight and agreeing to a stay of disclosure serves only the bank's interest, not yours.

 

Or is there something I've missed?

 

Best

Westy

Westy

 

 

 

If you like my post, click the scales!!

 

Nov 1 2006 Preliminary letter

21 Feb 2007 - cheque arrived for charges+DEBIT interest +Statutory Interest! Hurray!

Read all about it: natwesttookmymoney - v- NatWest

DONATE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO KEEP THE SITE GOING.

 

What can you claim? Vampiress has a good idea:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/69877-what-can-you-claim.html

Anything I say is just a suggestion. I'm a bigmouth, not a lawyer!

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Looking back through the thread, the only thing I can see that is possibly open to discussion is whether you're claiming the same thing twice - the loan plus interest you had to take out to consolidate the charges, and the charges (plus interest) themselves.

I'm not sure I've got that right though. Please correct me.

Westy

Westy

 

 

 

If you like my post, click the scales!!

 

Nov 1 2006 Preliminary letter

21 Feb 2007 - cheque arrived for charges+DEBIT interest +Statutory Interest! Hurray!

Read all about it: natwesttookmymoney - v- NatWest

DONATE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO KEEP THE SITE GOING.

 

What can you claim? Vampiress has a good idea:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/69877-what-can-you-claim.html

Anything I say is just a suggestion. I'm a bigmouth, not a lawyer!

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Like I said, I'm not prepared to disclose what they actually said about loan agreements until I get that one sorted but I will post it when they settle.

 

I'm not going to mention a stay. They have 3 weeks before they have to disclose so I'll keep the pressure on and see what happens.

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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Actually Paul, I was just going to say, as well as them having 3 weeks to get a cheque issued, you've also got 3 weeks to decide whether negotiations are going well enough to apply for a stay anyway :)

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Please see the following copyright statement

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Fair enough, Paul.

Sheers, matey, and good luck - keep us posted (which I'm sure you will!!)

Westy

Westy

 

 

 

If you like my post, click the scales!!

 

Nov 1 2006 Preliminary letter

21 Feb 2007 - cheque arrived for charges+DEBIT interest +Statutory Interest! Hurray!

Read all about it: natwesttookmymoney - v- NatWest

DONATE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN TO KEEP THE SITE GOING.

 

What can you claim? Vampiress has a good idea:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/69877-what-can-you-claim.html

Anything I say is just a suggestion. I'm a bigmouth, not a lawyer!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just an update - there's nothing to update!!!:mad:

 

I wrote back to Cobbetts last week clarifying my position on the loan and accepting the offer made as an interim payment and guess what - nothing.

 

I suspect that they are going to drag it out as close to 22nd as possible or possibly request confidential disclosure of costs. If they don't settle, I do now have a hearing on 17th January for my application for an order that they respond to my Part 18 request.

 

My standard disclosure will be ready in plenty of time - the question now is, will theirs?

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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makes you want to spit doesn't it Paul :( do they get extra lessons at law school on prevarication and obfustication?

Lula

 

Lula v Abbey - Settled

Lula v Abbey (2) - Settled

Lula v Abbey (3) - Stayed

 

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A little help please guys.

 

I'm just preparing my disclosure for the court (because they haven't paid me yet!!!) and I'm a little confused.

 

The court order states:

 

3. Disclosure is limited to standard disclosure by 4pm on 22nd December 2006

 

4. The latest date for delivery of the lists is 19th January 2007

 

What's the difference. If you make the disclosure surely the list is delivered and served at that time.

 

Thanks

Paul

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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