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PPL PRS/Pannone - claimform - unpaid auto rolled music performance licence for online Zumba Classes that closed months before rollover. *Claim Dismissed**


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After numerous phone calls and letters threatening litigation, my daughter finally gets what looks like a questionnaire from the court.

Their T's&C's stipulate that they want 28 days' notice for cancellation, which of course she didn't know about, and didn't serve. And even if she had served due notice of intent to cancel her licence, many of these 1* reviews suggest that she'd still find herself in the same predicament:

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/pplprs.co.uk?stars=1

To save her any further stress, I've asked her to pass it over to me, along with all the comms/dealings/exchanges she's had with them to date. I'll be dealing with it on her behalf as her rep. They are pursuing her for £90-odd, which has now risen to £192  - presumably coz of the court fees. Meantime, and until I receive the 'file' from her,

1. Any ideas what this court questionnaire might be, assuming it's legit?

2. Does a failure to read their T's&C's (and comply with them) mean that her defence is now fatally compromised?

Many thanks.

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Please will you lay out the whole story in bullet point fashion

Also please upload the questionnaire or other court documents which you have received in PDF format

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  • dx100uk changed the title to PPL PRS Ltd - music licence and their bully-boy tactics

i doubt its a court claimform?, but a letter of claim from a solicitor representing their client ppl/prs?

it will have a reply pack with various questions as well as an I&E form to fill out?

read upload get it up asap as one multipaged pdf..do not reply till we have advised after seeing it.

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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BankFodder - Will do. Thx.

dx100uk - Swearing? Have you read any of those Trustpilot reviews? OK, how about 'den of thieves' then? Any better?

 

@ dx100uk

PS: I now have the questionnaire, and it looks legit to me. It's an N1SDT Claim form (04.14), and it was issued by the County Court Business Centre in Northampton. 

 

@ dx100uk

PPS: Oh yeah, thx for the advice.  

 

BTW guys, the form was issued in her married name. She reverted to her maiden name after her divorce some yrs ago. Does that have any bearing on the proceedings?

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please complete this:

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to PPL PRS Ltd music licence claimform

Duplicate posts removed upload is fine.

Just copy and paste that link here with your responses although most of it wont be applicable to this type of claim.

 

Andy

 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to PPL PRS/Pannone - claimform - unpaid music performance licence

Which Court have you received the claim from ?  Northampton N1

IName of the Claimant ? PPL PRS Ltd

How many defendant's  joint or self ? Just the one - my daughter.

Date of issue – 16/06/2023

Particulars of Claim

What is the claim for – 

1.The Claimants claim is for £105 in respect of an unpaid invoice rendered on the 01 February 2023, issued by the Claimant on behalf of it's members to cover the public performance of musical works at the Defendants premises (as per the terms of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988) .

AND the Claimant claims the sum of £104.62

TOGETHER with interest pursuant to Section 69 of The County Courts Act 1984 from 01 February 2023 to 15th June 2023 at 8.00% per annum being £3.09

and further interest on a daily basis until the date of payment or request for Judgment at the rate stated for the principal sum the daily rate being £0.02p. 15th June 2023

What is the total value of the claim?  £193

Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? 

Multiple threatening letters, e-mails, phone calls, etc., yes. Whether PAPDC compliant is another matter. I'll leave that to you guys to determine, if that's ok with you.

Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No, but the claim was issued in the wrong name. Now reverted to maiden name, as mentioned above.

Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? N/A

Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No. See particulars of claim given above.
 

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? N/A. There was no agreement, signed contract, etc.

Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? N/A
 

Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? To my knowledge, credit file not interrogated, so unable to answer with any certainty.

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Assigned to a legal rep., who I doubt has purchased the debt.

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Their demands mention that, in the event of non-payment, they will pass the matter to a third party - yes. Again, see PDF of claimant's letter posted above.

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? NO - unless the Final Demand may be considered such?

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? Again, no.

Why did you cease payments? Service no longer used/needed/required. On-line zumba classes ran for just a few months (in 2020/21, I believe), then ceased altogether.

What was the date of your last payment? TBA by the defendant.
 

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? Yes. The creditor demanded payment for the following year, even though the licence was no longer required. They assume a rolling subscription UNLESS 28 days' notice of intent to cancel is served. This is in their T's&C's. The defendant was unaware of this term. She has not seen, read, or noticed their T's&C's, and thus fell foul of one of its terms.

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? N/A

If you have not already done so – send a CCA request to the claimant for a copy of your agreement (If Applicable) N/A

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PS:

I've just noticed another FINAL DEMAND dated 1st April 2023 with different invoice details - which begs a few questions.

So yeah, I'm confused.

That's the problem with acting as her rep. - I'm not in possession of all the facts. I can only assume that because she has never served her 28 day cancellation notice, she is still being continuously invoiced for subsequent years too. Hopefully, these discrepancies will be resolved when I get her statement of facts.

And here are her bullet points:

  • paid for licence in Jan 2021
  • zumba classes until June 2021 after they changed their terms. 
  • I thought I was just letting the licence run out. 
  • After I got the renewal notice, I just ignored it thinking I didn't need to renew
  • I got chased by PPL PRS and I spoke to them on phone but I can't remember the date. They told me to just pay it and they would refund me later. I was highly  skeptical that they would refund me after reading reviews of people doing the same and not getting refunds, so I didn't do that. 
  • My details got passed to ORIEL collections agency (emails, daily calls and weekly letters) in 2022
  • I left a trustpilot review but I didn't log back into it, so I didn't see they had responded to my review, attached.
  • My details got passed to Credit Security (again lots of calls and letters) in 2023
  • Pannone Ltd opened up a court application letter received Tues 20th June
  • I rang PPL PRS same day and explained the situation and they told me they cancelled my account from their end but advised I needed to fill out a defence since it had got so far down the line. 
  • I rang Pannone Ltd who said there was nothing I could do but file a defence. 
  •  
I presume you don't need every single letter and email - there were a lot and all say the same. I have letters from Oriel and Credit security I could pass you. 
 

Any other queries, I would have to put to her for clarification, etc., but otherwise hopefully that's enough to enable you to advise re. an effective defence.

PS:  Her points refer to an attached Trustpilot review that wasn't attached. I'll post up when I get it from her. Meantime, this is the background to the changed terms referred to in her points:

From the defendant:

This was their notification changing their terms half way through their contract with me, saying they will no longer cover fitness classes online

This was the exact time I stopped doing my online classes since my numbers had dropped but also because my licence didn't cover my classes so I thought I would stop altogether. 
 
From EMD UK

From the claimant:

Hi Xxxxx

We are disappointed to learn that PRS for Music will not be continuing the online fitness music licence. This means original artist and copyright music will no longer be allowed for online workouts from 30th June 2021.

EMD UK and The Chartered Institute for the Management of Sport and Physical Activity have been in discussions with PRS Music, MPA and the UK government to find a long-term resolution and will continue to challenge the decision. We are also continuing to push for other forms of support for instructors, to help them recover from the impact of the last 18 months.

Although this will come as a disappointment to many, we would like to alert instructors to offers that our supplier partners have put forward:

WSHQ: Workout Music

WSHQ: Workout Music are currently having a 50% off sale on all their music. Use code BIGSUMMERBLOWOUT at checkout to get 50% off.

Their music is royalty-free, meaning it can be used on online classes, both pre-recorded for YouTube or Facebook and live streaming by instructors. It requires no PPL or PRS licence.

Offer ends 11.59pm on Wednesday 30th June.

Search and buy music here.

..... etc etc (ie followed by several more "offers")

PS:  Her points refer to an attached Trustpilot review that wasn't attached. I'll post up when I get it from her. Meantime, this is the background to the changed terms referred to in her points:

 
Found her Trustpilot review:

You’ll get caught out.

I didn’t know you had to write to cancel your licence 30 days before your licence ends otherwise you’re legally liable to pay I’ve never heard of this practice for anything where you believe you’re entering a 1 year contract. If you don’t do this all your details get passed on to Oriel and they will harass you with calls emails and letters DAILY. I rang the company and was told there was nothing I could do but pay my licence (I don’t need it) and have to then write to ask for a refund after of the remaining term. I really feel uncomfortable about it - as a struggling single parent all the pennies count for me atm it’s either fork out a small fortune for something I don’t want or need or be harassed daily.

This must be why people don’t bother with music licenses.

Date of experience: 16 March 2022

And this was their weasel-word reply:

 

Reply from PPL PRS Ltd

28 Mar 2022

Hi Xxxxx, we are sorry to hear that our level of service provided was not up to the standard we would expect to provide.
Could you please email the details of the licence to [email protected] and we can look into this for you.
Thank you.

....Considering the number of reps she made to them over a period of around 2 yrs explaining her circs, that "reply" is a complete joke.

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they've not a chance i hell they'll win with no proof any classes were taking place after xxx date. the fact it rolls over in their T&C's is useless and not enforceable.

re: letter of claim, it could be good browny points if you could findout if they didn't send one. you looking for a letter entitled Letter Of Claim. it will have a reply pack with it, wanting ans to various questions and wanting an I&E sheet filled out. 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to PPL PRS/Pannone - claimform - unpaid auto rolled music performance licence for online Zumba Classes that closed months before rollover.

dx100uk

Their claim against her had a distinctly fishy smell about it. In fact, it stank to high heaven. I doubt they ever sent her such a letter, but I've put the question to her to confirm. TBA.

 

PS: Apologies, the above 2nd header for the quote from EMD UK should have read "From the claimant".

Edited by Beesnees
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done

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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ok well everyone mentioned so far inc Oriel and Credit security and pannone are all just fleecers that are well know here

i'm sceptical PRS even knew pannone had raised a claimform.!!

get the basics done 

i'd still send a cpr wanting signed contract etc etc to them even though she has lots of letters.

 

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform

.register as an individual on the Gov't Gateway Site
Go to HMRC's login page.

Click the GREEN sign in button.
Click “Create sign in details”
Enter your email address where asked.
You will now be emailed a confirmation code. ...

You will now be issued with a User ID for your government gateway account.
 note down your details inc the long gateway number given, you might need it later.

then log in to the MCOL Website

.select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.

.then using the details required from the claimform

.defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

.get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors

adapt this one:

LEGAL : CPR 31.14 Request when Claim issued for a Bank Current Account/ Overdraft. - Court Procedure and General Guidance (mainly England and Wales) - Consumer Action Group

type your name ONLY

no need to sign anything

.you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.

you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.

………….
 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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@ dx100uk

1. CPR 31:14 Request - No Agreements, etc. are mentioned in their Particulars of Claim, and we can argue the toss over whether any are implied. Is such a request still relevant here?

2. Defence - Unless I've missed something, you haven't said anything specific about the grounds. Is it simply a case of denying the validity of the invoice on the grounds that the public broadcast of recorded music on her premises ceased in June 2021 - when their T's&C's changed? Is that sufficient, even though she 'breached' their T's&C's by failing to give 28 days' notice of cancellation? I want to be sure of a slam dunk win.

3. Counterclaim - For:

a) Refund of 50% of the licence fee for half of 2021, since no music was played after June 2021, and 

b) The stress to which she was subjected on an almost daily basis as a result of years of constant harassment by 'phone (until she blocked them), e-mail and threatening letters from debt collection agencies.

Would this be a complete waste of (my) time & money? I'd be more than happy to write off the fee in the event of an unsuccessful counterclaim. As far as I'm concerned, the knowledge that I had forced them to waste their time defending it would be more than adequate compensation. 

4. Letter of Claim - TBA. She has yet to reply to my enquiry.

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1.contract copies..payments etc send it.

2. yes... you cant breach t&c's..they are debatable , just think about the £b's got back under ppi...

3. dont counterclaim...

4. you can seek that stuff within your ws..

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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@ dx100uk

1. Confirmed - no Letter of Claim received. Can/should this be added to the CPR31:14 request? Not quite sure what you mean by:

Quote

"you can seek that stuff within your ws.."

2. Can I request a full statement of account under the provisions of CPR31:14?

3. Their's is a malicious, vindictive, vexatious and totally unjustified claim that has caused her endless stress and anxiety for well over a year. And they owe her for half the unused licence fee (around £48) for 2021, which she never claimed. Under those circs, may I ask why you are advising me against lodging a counterclaim? It's the least they deserve.

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because counterclaims 9/10 cost more than she'll ever get back if things go wrong.

you can request that sum returned and any other issues at disclosures stage.

dont play your cards early ever....

send that CPR

request a copy of the signed contract.

full statement of account from day one.

inc a list of payment dates.

etc

 

and forget this notion of being targeted.

she should of simply ignored everyone from day one and blocked all texts/emails/phonecalls, they would have given up months ago.

its purely a speculative claim designed to continue the trauma she has portrayed to them they have caused to date and hoping she wets herself and coughs up before court.

the claim is only for £105, it will cost them more than that in unclaimable fees even if they win, which they wont

@Andyorch will i'm sure nearer the date..deal with a simple effective defence.

you are in the info gathering stage.

whatever you have put it all together in one mass multipage pdf from whoever.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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no dont tip them off they poss should have abided by PAP

it might not apply to them anyway..not sure.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Can you elaborate please?

I calculate the cost of the c/claim at less than £30 (£500 + 46*5%). That's a sum I'm prepared to lose, and if it only puts them on the back foot, I'd still consider it money well spent.

Are you saying that if I lose the c/claim, I will be in hock for a lot more than £30? If so, why? On what basis?

I can point to those Trustpilot reviews as evidence of the amount of stress they inflict on their customers.

And bear in mind this would be my cost, not my daughter's. It won't cost her a penny.

Edited by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed.
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small claims are not there to act as hurt feelings police and i understand your threads historic - lets push things to the enth limit just for laughs mantra.

let the normal course of the claim run its route.

there will be poss be a reason to request a refund of unused annual subs already paid during the  disclosures stage, which might well strengthen the overall i owe nowt position. 

you will also need to clearly state your legal rep status.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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@dx100uk - I hear ya, but this isn't primarily a question of settling a personal vendetta, or even pecuniary gain. It's much more a case of making them accountable for the sustained stress to which they subjected her over a protracted period, up to and including almost daily phone calls at one point. And that was despite repeatedly telling them that she was no longer playing their frigging muzak on her premises. Nobody should have to put up with that.

But OK. You're the adviser/expert here. Reluctantly, I'm obligated to follow your advice. 

Quote

"you will also need to clearly state your legal rep status"

?

Well, Attorney General I ain't. Will unqualified over-protective dad do?

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@dx100uk - I hear ya, but this isn't primarily a question of settling a personal vendetta, or even pecuniary gain.

It's much more a case of making them accountable for the sustained stress to which they subjected her over a protracted period, up to and including almost daily phone calls at one point.

And that was despite repeatedly telling them that she was no longer playing their frigging muzak on her premises. Nobody should have to put up with that.

But OK. You're the adviser/expert here. Reluctantly, I'm obligated to follow your advice. 

Quote

"you will also need to clearly state your legal rep status"

?

Well, Attorney General I ain't. Will unqualified over-protective dad do?

PS: Do you want/need to see my CPR31.14 Request before I send it? 

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