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    • Northmonk forget what I said about your Notice to Hirer being the best I have seen . Though it  still may be  it is not good enough to comply with PoFA. Before looking at the NTH, we can look at the original Notice to Keeper. That is not compliant. First the period of parking as sated on their PCN is not actually the period of parking but a misstatement  since it is only the arrival and departure times of your vehicle. The parking period  is exactly that -ie the time youwere actually parked in a parking spot.  If you have to drive around to find a place to park the act of driving means that you couldn't have been parked at the same time. Likewise when you left the parking place and drove to the exit that could not be describes as parking either. So the first fail is  failing to specify the parking period. Section9 [2][a] In S9[2][f] the Act states  (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid; Your PCN fails to mention the words in parentheses despite Section 9 [2]starting by saying "The notice must—..." As the Notice to Keeper fails to comply with the Act,  it follows that the Notice to Hirer cannot be pursued as they couldn't get the NTH compliant. Even if the the NTH was adjudged  as not  being affected by the non compliance of the NTK, the Notice to Hirer is itself not compliant with the Act. Once again the PCN fails to get the parking period correct. That alone is enough to have the claim dismissed as the PCN fails to comply with PoFA. Second S14 [5] states " (5)The notice to Hirer must— (a)inform the hirer that by virtue of this paragraph any unpaid parking charges (being parking charges specified in the notice to keeper) may be recovered from the hirer; ON their NTH , NPE claim "The driver of the above vehicle is liable ........" when the driver is not liable at all, only the hirer is liable. The driver and the hirer may be different people, but with a NTH, only the hirer is liable so to demand the driver pay the charge  fails to comply with PoFA and so the NPE claim must fail. I seem to remember that you have confirmed you received a copy of the original PCN sent to  the Hire company plus copies of the contract you have with the Hire company and the agreement that you are responsible for breaches of the Law etc. If not then you can add those fails too.
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    • I understand what you mean. But consider that part of the problem, and the frustration of those trying to help, is the way that questions are asked without context and without straight facts. A lot of effort was wasted discussing as a consumer issue before it was mentioned that the property was BTL. I don't think we have your history with this property. Were you the freehold owner prior to this split? Did you buy the leasehold of one half? From a family member? How was that funded (earlier loan?). How long ago was it split? Have either of the leasehold halves changed hands since? I'm wondering if the split and the leashold/freehold arrangements were set up in a way that was OK when everyone was everyone was connected. But a way that makes the leasehold virtually unsaleable to an unrelated party.
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PPL PRS/Pannone - claimform - unpaid auto rolled music performance licence for online Zumba Classes that closed months before rollover. *Claim Dismissed**


Beesnees
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8 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

Is not an agreement implied in the claim? No  Does not the PoClaim rely on the assumed existence of such a document? No only a speculative invoice So you're saying that the claim is based exclusively on a manufactured breach of the relevant legislation?  Yes If that's the case, do the points you raised above about 'strict proof' come into play in the CPR31 Request? No because CPR 31.14 can only request documents "mentioned /stated/referred to within the particulars not implied. See CPR 31 of the Civil procedure rules if you doubt me.

Yes, I have a copy of both the invoice on which the claim is based, and a full stmt of her a/c since inception. Both provide me with solid grounds for an unassailable counterclaim. Excellent and you also have it in writing that she owes nothing as per your recent post ? The legislation can [presumably] be found on-line, so making it the subject of the CPR Request would seem to be an exercise in futility and redundancy. Yes the legislation is readily available on line but they refer to " the terms "  of the legislation that this money is due and that is what their claim is based on .

Now here is the legislation they rely on ...you have a run through it and find which part supports their claim and which its based on  and how they arrive at £105.00

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/contents

 

We could do with some help from you.

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OK, understood, and of course I believe you. For some reason, I just seem to recall seeing somewhere during the course of these exchanges that an implied Agreement constituted grounds for a CPR 31 Request. But does that also now render a request for a copy of the Assignment redundant? If so, there are, for all practical purposes, virtually no docs that I need to request under the provisions of CPR31.

Gonna take a closer look at that PoClaim.

Quote

... and you also have it in writing that she owes nothing as per your recent post ? 

Unfortunately not. This was said to her during the course of a tel/con, and I doubt she asked them to put it in writing, let alone asked for their name. They say that tel/cons are [sometimes] recorded for training purposes, etc. If a recording exists, can she request a copy of the tape, or a transcript of the call?

PS: I assume by 'terms', he is referring to the provisions of the legislation itself.

Edited by Beesnees
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The devil is in the detail Particulars of claim are drafted very carefully in a way not to admit any liability nor to give you anything to add to a defence we refer to them as vague and for that very reason. The same will go for an initial defence response which will not commit or admit liability but questions the validity of the claimant's claim.

Well by " terms " that's for you to determine what they refer or alluding to...there are no terms in that legislation that states a breach can be considered a criminal offence or imposed by way of a trumped up fine.

Criminal offences are considered or determined in Magistrates or Crown Courts ...local county courts deal with civil /family claims. This is a civil claim and the claimant is (from reading between the lines on the google search I posted earlier have never actually tried a court claim) so yours could be a test claim...but then they will not expect a defence to be submitted to test their claim so they may well discontinue once that is submitted....but lets see.

We could do with some help from you.

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You mean that when I file my defence, I have to keep my best arguments in reserve for the hearing? No guns blazing? No firing on all 6 cylinders? Shazbot.

Anyroad, AoS now submitted - a day later than I intended. The jury is still out on whether I'll send that CPR Request. There is nothing they can disclose that I can't find out for myself, and it will in any case almost certainly alert them to an unexpected skill set on the part of the defendant. 

I want them to sleepwalk into a brick wall of a defence, and the less they know, the better.

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18 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

You mean that when I file my defence, I have to keep my best arguments in reserve for the hearing? No guns blazing? No firing on all 6 cylinders? Shazbot.

ALWAYS keep all bullets unload you dont hint at anything giving them time to fake stuff up

never reveal your cards until you have seen their Witness statement and their exhibits.

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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24 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

You mean that when I file my defence, I have to keep my best arguments in reserve for the hearing? No guns blazing? No firing on all 6 cylinders? Shazbot.

Anyroad, AoS now submitted - a day later than I intended. The jury is still out on whether I'll send that CPR Request. There is nothing they can disclose that I can't find out for myself, and it will in any case almost certainly alert them to an unexpected skill set on the part of the defendant. 

I want them to sleepwalk into a brick wall of a defence, and the less they know, the better.

You have a lot to learn...I would suggest you read a few topics by others on the process of defending a claim then we don't get to page 6 of your topic before a defence is even submitted :becky:

Actually I would send a CPR 31.14 as a general request for all intended disclosures on which their claim will rely upon as lets see how litigious they are and could possibly fire a warning shot that this will not be a default judgment with no response...they will already be aware you are defending by was of your AOS.

We could do with some help from you.

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Quote

"You have a lot to learn..."

Clearly. That's why I'm here 'talking' to you.

@dx100uk - So no decision is made on the strength of the initial defence? I must make it as vague, banal and anodyne as possible? Then ambush them at the hearing? Is that the gist of my strategy? Have I got it about right?

PS: Isn't that a breach of disclosure rules?

Edited by Beesnees
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Quote

Actually I would send a CPR 31.14

The invoice that forms the basis of their claim (which IS mentioned in the PoClaim), says:

"This invoice sets out the royalties due for TheMusicLicence for the royalty period specified in the enclosed Usage Summary, which contains the details of your music usage."

Since my daughter never received the original invoice, let's assume for the sake of argument that she has never received/seen this "Usage Summary" either. So, not explicitly mentioned in the PoClaim in its own right, but part of a document that is mentioned. Can I make it the subject of my CPR31 Request?

 

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yes but 9/10 ....no-one ever responds to anything till witness statement time mostly anyway.

you are really getting hung up on lots of things that dont matter for weeks and weeks yet...or bravado or stand up for her/your rights/rabbit holes...those have  no place in a court claim. 60posts now, most of them totally irrelevant... if you'd simply listened from the 1st few posts you'd be well on track and focused by now...

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Yeah, I get that a lot. No doubt, I'm a real pain in the gluteus, but most of those posts were generated in the course of seeking clarification, etc, so that criticism is a tad unfair. And I'm glad I did. Were it not for that clarification, by now I would have sent a CPR31 Request that would have been laughably wrong. At least I now have a chance of getting it right. And whether or not they respond is beside the point. 

In fact, unless I missed the reply, I'm still waiting for clarification on a CPR31 query asked above: namely, is it appropriate in these circumstances to request a copy of the Notice of Assignment of the debt to the claimant's sol'rs, bearing in mind this is not mentioned (or ever likely to be mentioned) in the PoClaim?

And as for the all the bravura, theatrics and hubris, etc etc, what makes you think any of that will find its way to her defence? When it comes to the crunch, I'm more than capable of speaking basic legalese.

 

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13 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

In fact, unless I missed the reply, I'm still waiting for clarification on a CPR31 query asked above: namely, is it appropriate in these circumstances to request a copy of the Notice of Assignment of the debt to the claimant's sol'rs, bearing in mind this is not mentioned (or ever likely to be mentioned) in the PoClaim?

Debt has not been assigned.

What will be helpful for later into the process if you could speak to your daughter and find out how exactly this agreement came about who approached who ? How was it agreed or entered into online phone etc ? 

We could do with some help from you.

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Her Reply

1. I knew I had to get a licence to play my music of choice for my dance classes online during lockdown, as I didn’t want to use copyright free music (it’s awful)… 

2. I am pretty sure I rang up and arranged it with them on the phone. 

3. They then followed up with an email confirmation with their t's+c's attached (which I didn't read) - the first email I ever received from them. 

4. Then they decided to stop covering for on-line exercise classes half way through the year, so I stopped the classes.

5. They continued to demand payment for subsequent years, even though I informed their debt collection agents at least dozens of times over the phone that the classes had ceased.

 
And that's all she wrote.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Help!!

Just tried to log on to MCOL to lodge her defence - multiple times. All I get is:

 

Quote

 

The following errors have occurred:

  1. Claim number or password is incorrect.

 

Any ideas about what's going wrong here?

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quite usual for a w/end crash

which is why we say FILE ON A FRIDAY by 4pm...

you'll have to wait till monday now for it to be reset.

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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On 23/06/2023 at 17:36, Beesnees said:

Date of issue – 16/06/2023

defence not due till by 4pm tues 18th

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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read the court sticky you filled out.

claimform date is ONE in the count.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

only ever the w/end where no-one's there

but yes there are alternates like email. but it will be ok.

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

What defence are you submitting ? Post a draft here first.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

If you want advice on your Topic please PM me a link to your thread

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