Tobacco Seizure

[spikejack]

I was stopped by Customs at Manchester airport on 2nd July this year. I had 7900 cigarettes and 4.8 kgs of hand rolling tobacco. After a very stressful two hours of interrogation the Customs Officer decided to seize them. I have appealed against this and it now has to go to Magistrates Court sometime in December/January.

 

I was wondering if anyone could possibly give me any advice.

 

I have written to my MP about the Seizure and the way I was treated. All she has said is she will speak to the MP concerned with Customs but there is nothing she can do about the case.

 

I cannot afford to hire a solicitor as I am on DLA

 

It's an awful situation to be in as I can't afford to lose the money I paid out for my tobacco products which is roughly 900 pounds but I also can't afford to lose the case against Customs because of their Costs. I don't think it's right. My wife and myself had saved for this 2 day trip as it saves us a lot of money

 

My arguments are that I travel to Spain roughly once every six months to get tobacco products for my wife and myself.

 

I have done this for the last three years

 

The first thing the Customs officer did was to ask a colleague to check my Passport to see how often I had traveled so they knew that it wasn't a regular trip.

 

I answered all the questions he put to me, even if some were irrelevant

 

I didn't try to hide or conceal anything

 

I had all the receipts for the tobacco products that I had purchased showing that I had paid the tax in Spain.

 

These will be my arguments when it does eventually go to Court. The most annoying thing is I received a letter off Customs basically saying that the tobacco products were for commercial reasons. How on a Customs officer's say so can they accuse me of that. I served in the Armed Forces for 9 years and left with an impeccable record. I feel as though I am being treated like a criminal. I was under the impression that we were part of Europe and it was a free market or does that only matter when it suits this Government

 

I just hope somebody can give me some pointers and any advice would be appreciated

 

thanks Karl

[butty_a]

Some thing similar happened to my dad but the difference was he has a very good job, but being a northerner he like to skimp and save. He had a recorded interview and helped for quite a few hours then let go with all the ciggies. They looked into his background i.e job/holidays. he does something similar to you, every six months he goes away for a long weekend (holiday where seperate though) and brings back lots of ciggies. they checked this out amongst other things and let him go, he even kept the interview reciept so if he gets stopped agian he will refer them to that.

 

I think the bottom line is prepare your story(dont lie), tell them that you do this 6 monthly because it get you cheap ciggies that you can bring in legally as there is no duty free any nore for the EU and consequently these savings help fund you week in benidorm etc. All you can hope for is a sympathetic judge, I think the fact you are going to try and reclaim them will go in your favour as most people who would sell them would cut thier losses and go back out for more. The customs lot are a law unto themeselves at times and they see joe blogs on not a lot of money with a suitcase full of ciggies and just assume your going to flog them.

[patdavies]

This web page details HMRC's stance.

 

There is no absolute limit, but they must only be for personal use (including gifts).

 

If you are bringing in 7900 cigarettes every 6 months then that is over 40 cigarettes a day on average; before you start on the hand-rolling tobacco.

 

If you go every 6 months, that is a regular trip.

 

You will need to convince the Magistrates that these are for your personal use and that any gifts are not in return for any consideration (not even selling 1 pack of 200 to a friend). They may well have an argument that the consumption is not solely personal if it is for both you and your wife and she has contributed to the purchase whilst not travelling.

[spikejack]

whilst I agree partly with you Pat even the Customs Officer was fine about the cigarettes being for the wife and the rolling tobacco for me. I think it was the amount I had and how much I had paid out for the products being on DLA . Fair enough when I have been on my trips I have seen groups of young men with the sole intention of bringing back as much as they could to sell on further. Seeing that I only go six monthly it would not be very profitable for me with the hotel and air fares taken into account. I also only bring back products which are not very popular. If I was going for commercial reasons I would bring back the popular products like Golden Virginia and Lambert and Butler

[EYEBALLS01]

If you stick to 3200 cigarettes each you should not have any problem coming from the EU. Remember that the Canaries and Gibraltar are not and you can only have 200/

[havinastella]

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I cannot believe what I have just read.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, you save your DLA (Which I pay for in taxes) to have a jolly to Spain every 6 months, to buy copious amounts of cigarettes to smoke, thus causing yourself more damage?

 

I'm sure my kids would love a holiday to Spain in the next 5 years

[Gogivit]

This reminded me of an issue a few years ago, and hence I found an article on the BBC.

Customs in 'booze cruise' talks

 

Type it into your browser and you may agree with what I read that the European Government states clearly that as long is for personal use, there is no limit! (as long as local taxes are paid)

 

I have to add that in a past job (as a manager in a customs bonded store) I have witnessed some amazing sights one which stands out most was a shipment stated as being "personal use" tobacco's and can say that 12+ pallet loads would take at least four to five hundred years to smoke for the average person, so I at least appreciate the fight that customs officers have, but your amount I consider was for personal use only.

 

So don't panick, its only 6 to 7 months worth. I am in agreement with butty a, the fact your prepared to fight this means youve nothing to hide.

[spikejack]

havinastella I'm not saying that my money from DLA goes on tobacco at all. My wife has a very good job. It's the fact that the Customs Officer would have treated me differently if I had been in employment.The Customs officer seemed to think that just because I don't work that I am short of money so therefore am automatically go to spain for two days so I can sell the tobacco. I became disabled whilst in the forces, I am not a scrounger at all.

[havinastella]

havinastella I'm not saying that my money from DLA goes on tobacco at all. My wife has a very good job. It's the fact that the Customs Officer would have treated me differently if I had been in employment.The Customs officer seemed to think that just because I don't work that I am short of money so therefore am automatically go to spain for two days so I can sell the tobacco. I became disabled whilst in the forces, I am not a scrounger at all.

 

I shouldn't rush to conclusions or assumptions, you were here for advise and not for someone to chastise you. I apologise and salute you for serving your Country.

 

Jogs

[Bookworm]

All you can hope for is a sympathetic judge, I think the fact you are going to try and reclaim them will go in your favour as most people who would sell them would cut thier losses and go back out for more.

I quite disagree. If they are taking you to court, they need to be able to prove to the judge's satisfaction that you brought these back for the purpose of selling them, and I would like to know how they intend to prove that!

[spikejack]

thank you havingastella for your kind words. It's just so annoying when it feels like the Customs Officer treats you like some of the people you see on the Jeremy Kyle show who are proud of living off taxpayer's money.

 

at bookworm.This is also annoying as how can Customs say they were for commercial use without any proof whatsoever, likewise how can I possibly prove they are for my family's use. I always thought in this country you were innocent until proven guilty but like butty said the customs are a law unto themselves or so they like to think which I think is wrong

[butty_a]

I quite disagree. If they are taking you to court, they need to be able to prove to the judge's satisfaction that you brought these back for the purpose of selling them, and I would like to know how they intend to prove that!

 

I agree with you bookie but they will use thier stautus as expert witness to try and sway the judge. As with most disputes like this where its one persons word agianst the other it will come down to the mood of one person. They will try to prove it by using distorted figures etc. 40 a day for the wife is quite a lot as he is only using the tobbacco. Thats all I'm saying, not that it will be biassed or anything, just down to a single person and thier mood can and does determine the outcome.

 

As he is willing to go to court/magistrates then that will go in his favour but it will still go down to what the judge thinks from what he/she has heard. We are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty but when it comes to a supposed loss of revenue for the government its a whole new ball game.

[seftonview]

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I cannot believe what I have just read.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, you save your DLA (Which I pay for in taxes) to have a jolly to Spain every 6 months, to buy copious amounts of cigarettes to smoke, thus causing yourself more damage?

 

I'm sure my kids would love a holiday to Spain in the next 5 years

 

This is quite inappropriate havinastella, and quite offensive.

 

A person in receipt of DLA (which includes me) is perfectly entitled to save it/spend it as they wish, and it is nobodys business but their own.

 

Whilst cigarettes is not something I'd personally save for, I can't condone the OP being harangued for his choice to do so.

 

SV

[Bookworm]

Sefton, Havinastella has already recognised his error and apologised to OP (#9). ;-)

[Thailand]

Ahhhh.... our old friends at Customs and Excise, how the rules don't apply to them. You WILL pay your tax here! They are world famous for this.

 

I agree with Bookie, surely the burden of proof is on them?, guilty until proven innocent with this mob.

 

OP, have a read on the following site..... been a long time since I've read it, but might be of help. (I can't link to it as it's heavily commercial).

 

day-tripper.net click 'tips' then 'Custom&Excise' in related site pages.

[laddie007]

i had 96 sleeves of lambert butler seized at liverpool airport in 2004 went 2 court t get them back and lost,hm customs had a t break with the magistrates,which i witnessed you dont stand a chance,if by a remote chance you do overturn the seizure you will only get back th money you paid ,not the tobacco,it is upto you to prove there for personal use,not for them 3 proof otherwise,its a no win situation for you ...

[Thailand]

What sort of court is this held in?

[spikejack]

@ thailand. It will be held in a magistrates court.

 

Thanks for all the advice so far. I am looking on the internet for any previous cases but not having much joy.

 

once again many thanks to all who have contributed

 

karl

[Thailand]

When you win in Court or have a favourable review

When you win (yes people do win)

At Court or Tribunal - Don't expect a gracious acceptance of defeat by C&E. Remember this is Operation Maximum Disruption and they will continue to disrupt your right to buy goods abroad, even when they lose in Court.

Send all letters demanding immediate compensation by registered post straight away (they will drag their heals terribly). Once again write to your MP and MEP expressing your outrage that having won, you still have not been compensated.

When they don't pay you compensation or make a ridiculous offer (usual) make a claim in the County Court for the amount owed (value of car and goods in the U.K.. You are not liable for the expenses this way. Claim for time used in the case, taxies etc.

Involve a Solicitor at this stage if you have not already. They can claim their costs which makes it expensive for C&E to pursue these sort of actions. We like to think it makes THEM think about that they are doing.

If necessary go to your local county Court and put a claim in against C&E for the return of the tax you legally paid in France / Belgium (As long as your claim is for less than £1,000 you are entitled to do this. It should cost £30, no more).

Some victims have succeed via this route, usually being offered full settlement before the hearing.

On review- if they offer you your goods back, agree, but only if they reimburse you with the tax you paid in France / Belgium / Luxembourg or where ever, or pay your travel costs to buy them again. Insist on a letter guaranteeing free passage when purchasing that same quantity.

If you are successful and get your car back (Sell it, they will target you even though you won).

You will be offered the money value of the goods at French Prices - insist on the goods being replaced.

They will have sold your car for a ridiculous price - insist on a replacement or the correct value in money terms. Expect to go to Court to fight your claim.

They will suggest your car was not driveable and offer you what they received at auction when they sold it before your appeal was heard (after it had been outside unattended for months). DON'T ACCEPT.

Write in before the case asking for their Authorities - this seems to scare them off

I'll PM you the whole page, it might help.

[barracad]

Thai... what car

 

I don't think the OP took a car onto the plane, nor had it seized.

[Thailand]

Yes, the car bit isn't relevant.

[Bookworm]

There is some seriously misleading advice in that quoted stuff, Thai.

When they don't pay you compensation or make a ridiculous offer (usual) make a claim in the County Court for the amount owed (value of car and goods in the U.K.. You are not liable for the expenses this way. Claim for time used in the case, taxies etc.

Not true. If you lose, the other side can ask for their costs and depending on the judge, they may or may not get them. As a rule, costs shouldn't be awarded, but we do see it happen.

Involve a Solicitor at this stage if you have not already. They can claim their costs which makes it expensive for C&E to pursue these sort of actions.

That is hugely misleading. The whole point of SCC is that you, as a LIP, will NOT have a solicitor and again, depending on the judge, you may not get those costs back.

 

We like to think it makes THEM think about that they are doing.

If necessary go to your local county Court and put a claim in against C&E for the return of the tax you legally paid in France / Belgium (As long as your claim is for less than £1,000 you are entitled to do this. It should cost £30, no more).

Court fees went up last year, and in particular with the now added court hearing fee, it can actually run a lot more than that.

 

Just thought it needed clarifying. ;-)

[Thailand]

Sorry OP! Methinks I've confused myself. I certainly knew about the court fee. I had a hangover posting that, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!.

[MARTIN3030]

A hangover by any chance from one of your 10 litres of duty free ?

[Thailand]

A hangover by any chance from one of your 10 litres of duty free ?

 

I can't afford to go on holiday, not like someone I know who lives it up in the Ukraine. :D