Dropped Coffin

[jendoc]

I don't know if this is the correct forum for my problem but I will give it a go anyway.

 

While at a funeral 2 weeks ago of a close family member at a cemetery in Manchester, the untertakers took the coffin out of the hearse and placed it on 2 wooded slats that were positioned over the grave.

 

Before any rope could be attached to the coffin to secure the weight of it, it suddenly fell head first into the grave with a terrible loud thud! The two grave attendants ran away! and left it to the undertaker and several mourners to try and manouver the coffin back onto the graveside. It took over 10 agonising minutes to get it back on top again.

 

The screams from the mourners was terrible and some children ran away crying and quite traumatised. To date we have still had no apology from anyone. We spoke to the undertaker and right away he distanctanced himself from any responsibility and actually informed us it was the cemetery staff that are responsible for the coffin once it is in the cemetery.

 

We have wrote and emailed the cemetery but to date with no reply. The undertaker has since sent a bill for £3000, £1300 of which he says are cemetery disbursments that he has already paid out!

 

Can someone please advise us what is our next step and if we should hold back the payment until we find out who is to blame and then make them reduce thier bill for the added stress and trauma they caused on that sad day!

 

Thank you,

 

Jendoc

[Bookworm]

I'm happy to be corrected if I am wrong, but apart from a good will gesture, I don't think you'd get very far: You haven't suffered financially, no-one was actually injured, and unless you can actually prove stress and trauma (as in counselling, psych evaluations etc), you have no recourse there either, and these things are notoriously difficult to prove in court.

 

If the undertaker is telling the truth and it is the cemetary staff who are responsible, then I don't see that the undertaker has any liability whatsoever, and so no, I don't think you have any reason to withold any part of the bill.

 

In life and in death, things happen that shouldn't. I have said elsewhere that at my mum's funeral, the CD player skipped during the time of private thoughts and rememberance, turning Albinoni's Adagio into a rap version of Albinoni in da house. As you can imagine, not the effect anyone was going for. However distressing, these things happen. :-|

[robin9342]

Not so sure. You have paid for a service which you did not receive: £1300 cemetery disbursements. As you have stated the grave attendants ran away, I would suggest you are due at least some compensation from them.

 

After all, I wouldn't pay my plumber if he ran away from my boiler!

[callumsgran]

Hmmm i would go along with that

Make some enquiries as to who was at fault by ringing other funeral directors and asking who shoud've put the ropes in place

Then if it was the cemetery workers that were to blame i would withhold the payment due to them

Let the funeral directors sort it out

After all they shouldnt have placed a coffin just on some wooden boards

Edited August 11, 2008 by callumsgran
typo

[jendoc]

Thanks to all who responded, your advice is very much appreciated!

 

Jendoc

Edited August 11, 2008 by jendoc

[legalpickle]

You are not entitled to compensation unless you can prove by law there was a resulting injury from what happened. Such a case may be too costly. I would go to a Solicitor if you need advice about that [not a claims tout who will promise you the world and not provide].

 

However, if you had contracted them to maneuver the coffin correctly into the grave and they did not do that - as you have indicated - then you are entitled to a discount of that cost.

 

Your contract was with the undertaker thus the undertaker is liable to you. It is between him and the cemetary if this was their fault. I would write a harsh letter to him explaining the situation and advising the pro-rata amount you are not making. If he disputes this he must take you to court to collect and inform him that you will vigorously defend any action.

 

If he sets the bailiffs on you then send a copy of the letter to the bailiffs. If you feel compelled to pay, then do so, but make clear at that time you are paying in dispute and will be suing him for that amount plus interest at 8% per annum pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984.

 

If you need advice post here or PM me and I'll try to help or I'm sure somebody else will.

 

That's my advice, I may be wrong, but that's what I'd do in your situation.

[gyzmo]

There doesnt have to be injury for compensation - merely a loss.

 

You could argue that there was a failure of duty of care and excercising reasonable care and skill. Is the undertaker part of an association? If so it may be worth taking it up with them.

 

Away from this however, you need to consider whether such a thing should be drawn to a close. The last thing I personally would want would be fighting a case and resurrecting painful memories.

 

I'm going to my uncles cremation tomorrow and would hate to think of anything going wrong like what happened to you.

[Chesterexpress]

For goodness sake, get over it, accidents happoen and thats all it was an accident.

[legalpickle]

There doesnt have to be injury for compensation - merely a loss.

 

You could argue that there was a failure of duty of care and excercising reasonable care and skill. Is the undertaker part of an association? If so it may be worth taking it up with them.

 

Away from this however, you need to consider whether such a thing should be drawn to a close. The last thing I personally would want would be fighting a case and resurrecting painful memories.

 

I'm going to my uncles cremation tomorrow and would hate to think of anything going wrong like what happened to you.

 

 

Gyzmo: You are wrong if it is to be taken in court. Unless there is a basis in law for compensation [like for cancelled flights], which to the best of my knowledge there isn't you cannot claim compensation via the courts.

 

The breach of duty of care had to result in either a monetary loss or documented injury.

 

That's why I state the best way to deal with it would be to claim for the amount of the charges relating to what was not done.

 

However good point that if the undertaker is part of an association it may be worth taking it up with them. The only way to get compensation for damages to feelings in such cases is via associations and ombudsman schemes that make such awards. If there is no such scheme then the only damages you can get are for the service not provided as contracted.

 

In addition even if there was a way to claim compensation it is generally a lot easier to make claims like I am recommending. Nobody can charge for a service not provided so it is a relatively simple claim - in my opinion.

[legalpickle]

For goodness sake, get over it, accidents happoen and thats all it was an accident.

 

 

Chesterexpress: Stop being a nasty piece of work. This forum is to receive and impart advice, not nasty comments. If you have nothing constructive to say then get lost!

[Chesterexpress]

Chesterexpress: Stop being a nasty piece of work. This forum is to receive and impart advice, not nasty comments. If you have nothing constructive to say then get lost!

 

Insults as well eh legalpickle, that always tells me plenty about the type of person someone is. For your information it was not a nasty comment, it was sensible advice.No party was injured and no real harm was done, yes it may have been distressing, however as stated it was entirely an accident, so surely it is best forgotten.

[spiritgirl59]

Jendoc is understandably distressed and upset about what happened, as anyone would be, and has every right to come on this forum and share concerns/ask a question about it.

 

I would go down the route of contacting other undertakers and asking about the rope situation. I see this happened in Manchester which is the area in which I live; and a friend of mine is actually an Undertaker so if you would like me to speak to him on your behalf Jendoc I'd be glad to do so. If you want to pm me about it, you are welcome, and I will see what I can find out for you

 

Best wishes

SG

[legalpickle]

Insults as well eh legalpickle, that always tells me plenty about the type of person someone is. For your information it was not a nasty comment, it was sensible advice.No party was injured and no real harm was done, yes it may have been distressing, however as stated it was entirely an accident, so surely it is best forgotten.

 

 

Worded the way it was "For goodness sake..." under the circumstances was nothing less than a nasty remark. It is an emotional issue and I can only sympathize with those involved as to how emotional and hurtful the matter was.

 

Yes, sometimes it is better to drop things, but when they are so personal such a recommendation only seeks to aggravate matters.

 

Yes, your comments tell me a lot about the type of person writing them. Ugh.

 

If you have such advice to impart, then impart it in a sensitive manner, not such a rough way.

[gyzmo]

Perhaps there is some confusion. I wa trying to state that injury alone is not the only reason why a case can go to court. If any loss or damage has been suffered, then damages or compensation can be claimed in a court. I t does not have to be an injury.

 

As to whether the loss suffered here is sufficient for court is a different matter.

 

On the aother point - yes that was a nasty and thoughtless comment by Chester which says more about her than anything esle.

[PriorityOne]

From what I've read of your first post, you spoke to the undertaker over the 'phone. You need to put your complaint in writing and send a copy to the cemetery at the same time; both by rec. delivery.

 

They will then have to give you a written response.... which you need before you can do anything else.

 

As for the emotional side of the thread... a lot depends on who passed away and how. With someone who was near their time and passed away naturally... it's possible to laugh at such a situation. However, when someone loses a child for example.... or loses someone following a horrific accident/illness/death, nothing is funny when things go wrong. It's just a very painful time for everyone and personally, I'd have a HUGE problem getting over anything like you've described.

 

[jendoc]

Many thanks for all your comments and advice, they have been most helpful.

 

With regards to the comment from 'Chester Express' advising me to "Get Over it" I just hope YOU never have to experience a loved of yours being dropped head first into thier grave.

 

It is only when you experience it first hand as I have done, that your attitude towards such a traumatic incident may indeed change. It was'nt some comical sketch from a 'Two Ronnies show' it was a young woman who died in agony with stomach cancer only 8 weeks after having it first diognosed.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jendoc

[legalpickle]

Jendoc,

 

We can only start to try to imagine what you and the others who were close to this young lady are going through.

 

Please keep us posted as to how you proceed with this. I am sure that if I can't help somebody else will if you need further help.

 

I would agree with the previous poster who said that you should write to the undertaker setting clearly out your complaints and what action you intend to take if they don't make a settlement offer by way of discount off the bill. Demand a written response within 14 days, and send it by special delivery.

 

When I write a letter of complaint and receive a telephone call I advise them that they should write to me, as I have had that courtesy and I require a written response for evidence. I then hang up. Do as you feel is right, others will disagree with this opinion, but that's the way I do things.

 

Best wishes,

legal

[kennythecelt]

Jendoc

 

I am sorry to hear about what happened at your close relatives funeral as are the rest of the site team at CAG. This must have made an emotionally traumatic time even more disturbing for everyone there. So I can sympathise entirely with what happened and appreciate that those memories will stay with everyone for a long, long time. It is not something that I would like to witness myself.

 

I think that, with one obvious exception, everyone here that has posted on your thread at CAG, has gathered round to offer support to you and then to offer advice on what you could possibly do. I also elieve that people should think before they post and that if they have nothing constructive to add to the thread that they should not post. The great thing about CAG, because we are a part of a community, with a common bond, people generally do their best to help others. Unfortunately, on occassion, someone does not.

 

There are sometimes possible exceptions to this however. I am reffering to the following comment:

 

For goodness sake, get over it, accidents happoen and thats all it was an accident.

 

The comment certainly comes across as insensitive and more thought should have gone into how it would be perceived. As in life, we need to choose the people we relate to and whose comments we value. In this case, please believe me when I say that all posters here are upset that someone could post such a comment.

 

Please disregard it if you can and concentrate on the fact that everyone else in CAG is really sorry about the situation you experienced.

 

May I wish you and your family my best wishes for the future at this very difficult time. I hope that one of the constructive suggestions above, provides the solution you are seeking.

Edited August 13, 2008 by kennythecelt

[jendoc]

Thankyou 'Kennythecelt' for your comforting comments, they and and all the advice given on this forum is very much appreciated. It is a great comfort to be able to receive such warm and helpful advice from total strangers!......Thankyou to All who commented including 'Chester Express' who I am sure did'nt intentionally mean to hurt my feelings with their comments.

 

Jendoc

[jendoc]

As a general update to my problem, I would just like the forum to know that since acting on advice given on here recently, my overall Funeral Bill of £2,300 has now been reduced by £1700!!

 

The cemetery waived their complete charge of £1,250! and the undertaker reduced his bill by £450! Niether of them understandably admitted liability but gave their reductions as a 'Gesture of Goodwill' and to draw a line under the matter.

 

I am very pleased with the outcome, and would like to take the opportunity to THANK all who gave me advice on this forum. I sincerely hope no one ever experiences the same traumatic incident as we did but at least the positive outcome we have had may encourage others to fight back and NOT just "GET OVER IT"! as was suggested by one forum member.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jendoc

[gyzmo]

Glad thats worked out.

[legalpickle]

As a general update to my problem, I would just like the forum to know that since acting on advice given on here recently, my overall Funeral Bill of £2,300 has now been reduced by £1700!!

 

The cemetery waived their complete charge of £1,250! and the undertaker reduced his bill by £450! Niether of them understandably admitted liability but gave their reductions as a 'Gesture of Goodwill' and to draw a line under the matter.

 

I am very pleased with the outcome, and would like to take the opportunity to THANK all who gave me advice on this forum. I sincerely hope no one ever experiences the same traumatic incident as we did but at least the positive outcome we have had may encourage others to fight back and NOT just "GET OVER IT"! as was suggested by one forum member.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jendoc

 

Congratulations! That's the type of outcome we like, even though it would have been nicer not to have the problem in the first place. Well done for being persistent, 99% of the time it pays off.

[GuidoT]

I too am pleased it has worked out for you.

[PriorityOne]

That's really fantastic, Jendoc....

 

Although it doesn't take away what happened on that day, it's a recognition and acknowledgement of the horror you and your family experienced.... and that makes it easier to bear.

 

I wish you all the very best... and hope that in time, you'll all eventually be able to look back on the happy memories that you shared.

 

Bless you....

Edited August 15, 2008 by PriorityOne
spelling...

[kennythecelt]

Good, I am pleased that aspect has been resolved.

 

Best wishes to you and your family in the future.