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[yourbank]

Are the amended POCs available yet ?

Have received new directions from my local court today regarding my stayed claim. I have been given permission to lift the stay without paying the subscribed fee, but need to provide amended POCs by the 04.02. with a skeleton argument why the claim should now proceed, bank has got until 18.02 to respond and they have set a hearing date for 29.03.10 !!

 

My thread can be found here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/238578-phantom-hsbc-after-judgement-new-post.html

 

 

Help .... (whimper)

 

Martin Lewis on MSE has stated that they have been delayed. I have spotted your thread and I think I would speak with site team. I doubt he will have updated advise before the time you need to file the amended POC. Early February, we will have an idea how the banks' are going to defend newer arguments. I'm not sure that you should have asked for the stay to be lifted at such an early stage but as the deed is done, then I think Site team need to help you on an amended POC since I doubt the Ray Cox ones will be available prior to you having to get yours in.

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Phantom,

 

That's good news in many ways. However what did you say in your letter to the Court for them to respond and allow the fee to be waived? Or do you think that the POC amendment fee waive is a general rule for all bank charge claimants?

 

TheyrCriminals

[The Phantom]

No, first they wanted me to pay £75.- to lift the stay, then I responded to that asking why I am being asked to pay such a fee if the stay was put in place by the court itself due to the test case and it was not requested either by the defendant or myself.

In response to that I got todays new directions. So I think whoever gets asked to pay to have the stay lifted needs to get back to their court questioning that.

Edited January 23, 2010 by The Phantom

[The Phantom]

The fee waiver was just for lifting the stay, I think they will still want me to pay to have the POCs amended though....but by the looks of it there are no new POCs available and probably won't be until the 4th so I really haven't got much to change at the moment.

I had a read through the new arguments posted on the MoneysavingExpert site, but am worried it is not going to be strong enough.

If I make it too easy to defend for the banks, they may just do that, and if they win I could be lumped with their legal costs which I can't afford, so not sure whether to withdraw the case now before I bite off more than I can chew...

[The Phantom]

Martin Lewis on MSE has stated that they have been delayed. I have spotted your thread and I think I would speak with site team. I doubt he will have updated advise before the time you need to file the amended POC. Early February, we will have an idea how the banks' are going to defend newer arguments. I'm not sure that you should have asked for the stay to be lifted at such an early stage but as the deed is done, then I think Site team need to help you on an amended POC since I doubt the Ray Cox ones will be available prior to you having to get yours in.

 

Yes, the problem is, the first advice after the High Court Ruling was to ask to have the stay lifted and a template letter was posted here on the site for this purpose.

I think a short time later that was revised again, but hey...never mind

Too late to worry now

[kennyh]

Would anyone care to venture an opinion as to whether Statute of Limitation arguments are now largely redundant with the demise of the old fairness concept. We shall be probably using Acts which date between 1974 & 1999 and, if the 6 year countback starts on any of those dates then the range of each claim will, for many folk, be adequate.

C'mon what am I missing?

[djgordyp]

Sorry this is a bit off topic (consider my wrist slapped). I just saw my stepson's Barcleys account statement. He opened this account when he was working over in England.

 

Anyway, there was an entry for an unpaid direct debit fee of....wait for it......... £8. How, in that case can other banks continue to justify charges in the region of £28 to £30+

[yourbank]

Sorry this is a bit off topic (consider my wrist slapped). I just saw my stepson's Barcleys account statement. He opened this account when he was working over in England.

 

Anyway, there was an entry for an unpaid direct debit fee of....wait for it......... £8. How, in that case can other banks continue to justify charges in the region of £28 to £30+

 

If he has a personal reserve then he should expect to be hit by a further £22.00 fee.

[kennyh]

justify

Not in their vocab dj

[srfrench]

Well what about Santanders' (Abbey's) one. ZERO charge!!!!

 

Expect Santander to go BAnkrupt next week

[caro]

I emailed my MP to find out what the Government intend to do about bank charges now, and his response does not tally with what the banks are saying.

 

Dear Caro

 

Thank you very much for your e-mail dated 11th January 2009 (was 2010 actually), on the subject of bank charges.

 

The Government has taken a look at the Supreme Court's ruling. We see that it has left open possible routes for dealing with the issue of bank charges. Some media reports suggested that the Supreme Court had closed off the opportunity for taking action. On the closer reading of the ruling it is clear that is not the case.

 

The Government does want action to be taken on the subject of bank charges and we have made that view clear. We are in discussion with some of the groups concerned about this and we would certainly be supportive of further action to try to tackle the problem.

 

Yours sincerely

 

James Plaskitt MP

 

I am going to write back and ask what form of action he anticipates.

 

I think I'll mention that the banks are deliberately misleading people with their letters suggesting that they can do as they like now.

 

I can't say how disappointed I am that MSE/Raymond Cox have not produced a POC that will get things moving again, but realistically 2 and half years of legal wrangling amongst the highest courts in the land hasn't resolved the issue so, IMHO, they were never going to solve it within a couple of weeks - or even months. There are no guarantees that if/when a new POC materialises, it will result in a successful outcome so people shouldn't depend on that alone and need to be proactive, as on this thread.

 

There are no easy answers here, but it's good to see that people aren't giving up.

[yourbank]

Probably working with the OFT on regulation which is being discussed and is ongoing currently with views being taken from all groups.

 

The banks have stated what the Supreme Court have said, ie that the level of charges is not challengeable.

 

I would expect Ray Cox et al would like to see how the banks' will respond to live cases which I would expect to see in the next 4 weeks. We already know that banks' will send in QC's with a view to make sure that any last hope people have is lost. Should they fail then I would say it is game on.

As has already been said on here, Govan Law Centre has already got templates with a view to this and have had them since January this year, though not POC's.

[kennyh]

I thought that there was a principle concerning 'level playing fields' at County Court level. Yes, I know the banks can (and have) sent in highly paid staff before but surely there must be the possibility of approaching a Judge and crying 'foul' (with the hope of some success).

[caro]

Probably working with the OFT on regulation which is being discussed and is ongoing currently with views being taken from all groups.

 

I suspect that is what he's referring to

 

The banks have stated what the Supreme Court have said, ie that the level of charges is not challengeable.

 

They are misleading people

 

I would expect Ray Cox et al would like to see how the banks' will respond to live cases which I would expect to see in the next 4 weeks.

 

That is of no help to those people who were led to believe that POC's were due any day, and whose cases are "live". A good thing that others are being rather more pro-active in trying to help them.

 

We already know that banks' will send in QC's with a view to make sure that any last hope people have is lost.

 

Do we?

 

Should they fail then I would say it is game on. Agreed, but watching and waiting won't help people fight whatever legal teams they face, assuming that their cases are not struck out.

As has already been said on here, Govan Law Centre has already got templates with a view to this and have had them since January this year, though not POC's.

 

And if people have cases in court it's POCs that they need, or to decide whether or not they can safely pursue their claims without exposing themselve to enormous costs.

[yourbank]

Do we?

James Duffy QC attended a return hearing in Edinburgh on 14th Jan. Might be a one off, might not be.

 

That is of no help to those people who were led to believe that POC's were due any day, and whose cases are "live". A good thing that others are being rather more pro-active in trying to help them.

absolutely agree ! Are CAG continuing to work with the other groups as per the announcement ?

 

And if people have cases in court it's POCs that they need, or to decide whether or not they can safely pursue their claims without exposing themselve to enormous costs.

again absolutely agree

 

They are misleading people

Maybe, the level of each individual charge is not challengeable under UTCCR. It may be under CCA and it may be with a overall contract standpoint under UTCCR.

 

There's a hearing for defending a strike application in court tmw.

Edited January 25, 2010 by yourbank

[kennyh]

YB,

There's a hearing for defending a strike application in court tmw.

Yours??

[EricTheRed]

James Duffy QC attended a return hearing in Edinburgh on 14th Jan. Might be a one off, might not be.

 

absolutely agree ! Are CAG continuing to work with the other groups as per the announcment ?

 

again absolutely agree

 

Maybe, the level of each individual charge is not challengeable under UTCCR. It may be under CCA and it may be with a overall contract standpoint under UTCCR.

 

There's a hearing for defending a strike application in court tmw.

 

James Duffy was called in 2005. He is NOT a QC. He is a junior barrister.

 

What happened in Edinburgh on 14th january can anybody post the result?

[EricTheRed]

I emailed my MP to find out what the Government intend to do about bank charges now, and his response does not tally with what the banks are saying.

 

Dear Caro

 

Thank you very much for your e-mail dated 11th January 2009 (was 2010 actually), on the subject of bank charges.

 

The Government has taken a look at the Supreme Court's ruling. We see that it has left open possible routes for dealing with the issue of bank charges. Some media reports suggested that the Supreme Court had closed off the opportunity for taking action. On the closer reading of the ruling it is clear that is not the case.

 

The Government does want action to be taken on the subject of bank charges and we have made that view clear. We are in discussion with some of the groups concerned about this and we would certainly be supportive of further action to try to tackle the problem.

 

Yours sincerely

 

James Plaskitt MP

 

I am going to write back and ask what form of action he anticipates.

 

I think I'll mention that the banks are deliberately misleading people with their letters suggesting that they can do as they like now.

 

I can't say how disappointed I am that MSE/Raymond Cox have not produced a POC that will get things moving again, but realistically 2 and half years of legal wrangling amongst the highest courts in the land hasn't resolved the issue so, IMHO, they were never going to solve it within a couple of weeks - or even months. There are no guarantees that if/when a new POC materialises, it will result in a successful outcome so people shouldn't depend on that alone and need to be proactive, as on this thread.

 

There are no easy answers here, but it's good to see that people aren't giving up.

 

I wrote to my MP and this is his reply.

 

“Thank you for your email regarding the recent Supreme Court ruling on bank charges,

 

I was extremely disappointed about the ruling as I believe that if the OFT cannot regulate this sort of activity then the banks may regards themselves above the rules. I am seeking to raise the matter with the appropriate authorities to see if there is another national body that can take on this class action on behalf of bank customers to prevent individuals having to pursue cases without support.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Terry Rooney MP

Bradford North”

 

Doesn’t say that much but I will give him a reminder

[srfrench]

Strewth....well nothing for it, I'm having to to pay for an application to unstay my claim otherwise it will be struck out on the 1st Feb 2010.

 

As such to save me from having to fork out 2 x £75 fees in raising applications I will be submitting my amended POC at the same time.

 

Just got very very tired and frustrated at having to wait, then wait, then wait some more with any assistance in submitting a new/amended POC.

 

I have formulated a new POC, just need it checking.

 

Can anyone assist as I will be in the Courts to submit the new POC before Friday. Help anyone?

Edited January 25, 2010 by srfrench
Forgot I had a coffee stain on it!

[yourbank]

Feel free to pm it to me, I'd send it over to Caro as well. I'd also keep an eye on PenaltyCharges as theres someone in court tomorrow

[kennyh]

Posted earlier by Ericthered

then the banks may regards themselves above the rules

Nice of him to reply but obviously lacking in experience of dealing with the banks

[the_shadow]

S

 

Can anyone assist as I will be in the Courts to submit the new POC before Friday. Help anyone?

 

Afraid I cant help with the drafting but I think its been mentioned on here before under the unfair relationship angle...

 

Now you have to make the POC's more personal than ever, its about the relationship between you and the bank..

 

IMVHO You'll need to look at each charge they have applied and see the consequences of that charge... did it make something else bounce, did the following months disposable income drop dramitically because of the charges etc.

 

I'm not advising listing all charges and cause and effect etc in the POC's but rather a summary of the relationship and how its progressed during the lifetime of the account and particularly since the charges. If this is an old account and you can remember meeting the bank manager or senior teller when opening the account/shaking hands etc put it in, level of trust etc... automated overdraft increases without request... put that in as well etc.

 

Just my opinon tho.

 

S.

[yourbank]

Re Edinburgh - you're right on James Fountain Court - People - James Duffy - I just get worried with these fountain court people - still not a local solicitor though but yes better than it being a QC.

 

The claimant was ordered to expand on his POCs and Mr Duffy wasn't given the opportunity to put his case forward.

[Bookworm]

The claimant was ordered to expand on his POCs and Mr Duffy wasn't given the opportunity to put his case forward.

That's half a result then... Better than being tossed on one's donkey.

[kennyh]

YB,

The claimant was ordered to expand on his POCs

has he?