HUMBLEMAN vs HFC-WEIGHTMANS COURT ACTION

[patrickq1]

This is the document I produced in the court which the Judge referred to in the Judgment and said that they would have formed part of the mailer.

since she tried to reject it she knows (provided it is still with the bundle and not got lost ?)

this can now be entered to show the re constituted document was so far from the truth that it is unreliable and HFC are now jointly liable for producing a fake document into the courtroom and more weight should have been given to the origional so your dispute has risen to a new level and that is the reconstruction of the contract was a deliberate act of deception and remember it is a criminal offence to lie whilst on oath. i think you really need t ask the judge's permission to bring forward this evidence and to give it more weight than what has already been given..

[patrickq1]

yes i know the wasted costs etc but you were not aware that this document existed or by mistake you did not realise it was in your evidence but ou were sure of the fact that you had informed theother side of its existance ????

but you were also unaware of its importance ????

i am trying to think of a reasonable excuse lol

 

just try to think back had you informed them at any time about its existance ?

patrickq1

[humbleman]

Thanks P

 

I will wait and see if my source can come up with the original full version.

[humbleman]

yes i know the wasted costs etc but you were not aware that this document existed or by mistake you did not realise it was in your evidence but ou were sure of the fact that you had informed theother side of its existance ????

but you were also unaware of its importance ????

i am trying to think of a reasonable excuse lol

 

just try to think back had you informed them at any time about its existance ?

patrickq1

 

I really didn't think this was an important piece of document, I still think that my case is so solid that any layman would take no more than 10 minutes minutes to make the right decision.

 

No original documents

Microfiche copy of an application form-Beneficial Bank

Beneficial welcome lender from the original lender saying enjoy balance transfer interest rate of 9.9%

T & C's that came from HFC clearly showing Balance transfer of 20.9%

The mailer I produced showing the transfer rate of 9.9%

 

and the list goes on.......

[patrickq1]

is it possible you missed a payment and they reserved the right to increase the per centage or you had a defalt they did not know about if so they will use this but they would have to notify you in writing

[humbleman]

never missed a payment in 27 years until 2007 when I made 3 /4 request for CCA, never had a default until 2007

[pedross]

Remember that this was the mailer that the barrister said, if he had seen before he would have asked his client to discontinue. There could be 2 reason why he said that,

 

1) In case the judge ruled in my favour he could still ask her for cost due to non disclosure from my part and wasted costs.

 

2) He genuinely meant what he said.

 

I think you are spot on and both are correct. This document should have won the case for you and the barrister knew that.

 

I don't know if there is a technicality and you can get the judgement set aside but if you can it would probably be your cheapest option. I don't think this would be new evidence as it was accepted by the court during the hearing. You need comments from the more legally qualified to guide you on this although I see there are some interesting points made so far.

 

What happens if the transcript shows that you did not get a fair hearing. Does that give you another angle?

 

Failing all that I would have thought someone would take this on as it looks like a good case for a Barrister to take to appeal. The result would be far more beneficial than some of the ones we have seen lately.

 

Pedross

[humbleman]

is it possible you missed a payment and they reserved the right to increase the per centage or you had a defalt they did not know about if so they will use this but they would have to notify you in writing

 

Don't forget that they are claiming that the T&C's would have been with the mailer, so the two should tally.

[humbleman]

I think you are spot on and both are correct. This document should have won the case for you and the barrister knew that.

 

 

Unfortunately I didn't have the whole version with me front and back.

[humbleman]

 

I don't know if there is a technicality and you can get the judgement set aside but if you can it would probably be your cheapest option. I don't think this would be new evidence as it was accepted by the court during the hearing. You need comments from the more legally qualified to guide you on this although I see there are some interesting points made so far.

 

What happens if the transcript shows that you did not get a fair hearing. Does that give you another angle?

 

 

would welcome further comments on this

[pedross]

Don't forget that they are claiming that the T&C's would have been with the mailer, so the two should tally.

 

They would have to prove that they were part of the same document. e.g. T & C attached in the signature box for starters.

[humbleman]

I have been on CAG for over 3 years and can't believe that not one cagger has taken this to court of appeal, if so, is not prepared to share the experience.

[patrickq1]

i remember them being hamiltons before they became beneficial then to HFC then to Household all under the another bank and forgive me i cant think who the bank is...i have by the way an old hamiltons t & c her in front of me and it is very intresting i will post it into photo bucket for others to upload

patrickq1

[humbleman]

They would have to prove that they were part of the same document. e.g. T & C attached in the signature box for starters.

 

There is no earthly was it would have been part of the same document since one of those mailer that you had to fold and moisten to stick, the front side is application and the other side id the return address. I can't see them fitting 2 A4 pages at the back.

[middenmess]

Unfortunately I didn't have the whole version with me front and back.

 

Surely a mailer wouldn't have a front and a back as the back would just have been the return postal address.

 

Put me down for a small contribution if you decide to appeal as this case could well have far reaching benefits for many on CAG when you win.

[patrickq1]

see this arguement for setting aside might have some pointers that could be usefull H

EXAMPLE SKELETON ARGUMENT IN AN APPLICATION TO SET ASIDE A STATUTORY DEMAND - WEALDEN DISTRICT COUNCIL THE RESPONDENT

[humbleman]

Thanks P

Thanks M

[humbleman]

By Monday I should have the transcript and then I need to get counsel advice as to the merits of set aside or appeal.

[foolishgirl]

I have been on CAG for over 3 years and can't believe that not one cagger has taken this to court of appeal, if so, is not prepared to share the experience.

 

Have you looked at this one HM?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/179069-stebiz-cabot-appeal.html

[Docman]

humbleman

 

Have you started a new thread to discuss the appeal?

 

You need to look at CPR52 which deals with appeals. If the District Judge refused permission to appeal at your hearing, you have 14 days to lodge an application for permission with the court. The permission application should be heard by a Circuit Judge. He will only review the papers and your application.

 

The grounds for the appeal must be because the judgment was

"(a) wrong or (b) unjust because of a serious procedural or other irregularity in the proceedings in the lower court".

 

It the judge's initial comments about this being a case of a debtor trying to get out of paying on a technicality before you have presented your case are recorded on the transcript, you should lead with this as a reason for an appeal.

 

You will also have to show that your case has reasonable chance of success. I suggest that when you make the application, you attach a skeleton argument for the circuit judge.

[humbleman]

Have you looked at this one HM?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/179069-stebiz-cabot-appeal.html

 

 

I followed that closely and have asked Stebiz for details of the counsel he used.

 

Docman

 

my trial was heard by Circuit Judge and I have to make my appeal to Court of Appeal

[patrickq1]

have you used this in the discovery of documents on their computors because it should or could possibly show how they re constructed the document and i am sure you are entitled to see the format they used to do this

The Duty to Produce Documents

 

A document under the Civil Procedure Rules is defined as a document as "anything in which information of any description is recorded". In English law, the parties to litigation are required to hand over or disclose documents that affect the prospects of success - or otherwise - of any of the parties to the litigation. Documents sourced from digital media therefore readily fall within the definition of a document. Parties to legal proceedings have a positive obligation to search digital records to ascertain whether relevant documents are stored in that form. Obviously then the evidence obtained may be introduced into evidence of that party or another party to support their claim, counter-claim or defence.

With the amendment of Practice Direction 2A to the Civil Procedure Rules, the application of disclosure to electronic documents is beyond question. The Practice Direction explicitly refers to documents that are held on electronic devices and media, servers and backup systems and electronic documents that have been deleted.

Documents held on PDAs, laptop computers, email servers, instant messaging records, documents created in a word processor, spreadsheet, presentation application such as Powerpoint or Flash, any database application are all disclosable. The restriction on their production lies in their relevance (defined by the CPR) and whether the documents whether they are revealed on a reasonable search, which in turn depends on the scale, nature and complexity of the legal proceedings in question, and whether relevant documents and data are likely to be revealed and the costs of doing so.

Failure to Comply

 

Failure to comply with one's disclosure obligations may lead to an application for specific disclosure and court orders requiring the party to deliver up the media upon which the digital documents were stored. Ignoring or refusing to comply with such an order would probably lead to some fury from the Bench, a charge of contempt of court, and may be closely followed by a custodial sentence or a pecuniary penalty.

[patrickq1]

and asking for SPECIFIC DISCLOSURE

[patrickq1]

court of appeals

Conduct, Complaints and appeals - Appeal a judge's decision

[humbleman]

P

 

The Judge would have not changed her mind, it's like accepting any man and a woman as a married couple (without the proof of a Marriage Certificate). Even though the woman is legally married to someone else.