HUMBLEMAN vs HFC-WEIGHTMANS COURT ACTION

[RobinWayRobinme]

Just had another response from another barrister regarding costs.

 

I would be able to assist you with a case such as this in the following manner.

 

Unlike solicitors, barristers do not “take on” cases in the sense that they do everything that is required. You, the client, would “run” the case but a barrister would carry out certain specified tasks, as instructed.

 

I could, for example, draft an Appellant’s Notice (which must be filed and served 21 days from the decision) and/or Grounds of Appeal. I could draft a Skeleton Argument in support. I could appear for you on any hearing. I could provide you with an Advice either in a meeting or in writing.

 

My fees are £300 per hour plus VAT.

 

Without actually seeing the papers (I note you have described the volume of them) it is difficult to give a reliable costs estimate. However, the best guidance I can give you in advance of seeing the papers is as follows:

 

1.Appellant’s Notice - £1200 plus VAT

2.Skeleton Argument (in addition to Appellant’s Notice) - £600 - £900 (ie £1800 - £2100 total for these two items)

3.Appeal Hearing (assuming up to one day) £2500 plus VAT

 

IMO this is the safest way forward as you only commit to one step at a time. If you go with this, I assume in dealing with the appellant's notice, it will include advice on the merits.

R

[egg-sterminator]

Just had another response from another barrister regarding costs.

 

I would be able to assist you with a case such as this in the following manner.

 

Unlike solicitors, barristers do not “take on” cases in the sense that they do everything that is required. You, the client, would “run” the case but a barrister would carry out certain specified tasks, as instructed.

 

I could, for example, draft an Appellant’s Notice (which must be filed and served 21 days from the decision) and/or Grounds of Appeal. I could draft a Skeleton Argument in support. I could appear for you on any hearing. I could provide you with an Advice either in a meeting or in writing.

 

My fees are £300 per hour plus VAT.

 

Without actually seeing the papers (I note you have described the volume of them) it is difficult to give a reliable costs estimate. However, the best guidance I can give you in advance of seeing the papers is as follows:

 

1.Appellant’s Notice - £1200 plus VAT

2.Skeleton Argument (in addition to Appellant’s Notice) - £600 - £900 (ie £1800 - £2100 total for these two items)

3.Appeal Hearing (assuming up to one day) £2500 plus VAT

Count me in for £100 for the fight fund !

[humbleman]

am I right then VJ that effectively, HFC made claim, Pheonix appeared in court. Did Pheonix provide anything to H or court that gave Pheonix a right to even be in court?

 

HFC issued the claim and then assigned the debt to PHoenix who were swapped as the claimant.

 

I know full well that the instructions are coming from HFC.

 

In fact at my last cmc I told the Judge that the Director of Phoenix should be called as witness (since he is the one who signed the WS) and his reply was I doubt if it be of any use he since he would not be aware of all the details

[foolishgirl]

 

In fact at my last cmc I told the Judge that the Director of Phoenix should be called as witness (since he is the one who signed the WS) and his reply was I doubt if it be of any use he since he would not be aware of all the details

 

Incredible! So any document signed by anyone off the street would have been admitted?? This challenges the whole concept of a WS i.e. it is a statement made & signed by a person who has knowledge of the facts. How could a Phoenix director sign the statement of truth at the bottom if he didn't know whether it was true of not?

[RobinWayRobinme]

HFC issued the claim and then assigned the debt to PHoenix who were swapped as the claimant.

 

I know full well that the instructions are coming from HFC.

 

In fact at my last cmc I told the Judge that the Director of Phoenix should be called as witness (since he is the one who signed the WS) and his reply was I doubt if it be of any use he since he would not be aware of all the details

 

OK, see whats happening now (I think).

1. HFC issued claim

2. assignment HFC to Pheonix

3. NOA received (or not so if not by recorded or special delivery).

4. Phoenix obtain permission from court to be substituted as claimant.

5. Appear in court.

Is this correct?

R

[humbleman]

OK, see whats happening now (I think).

1. HFC issued claim

2. assignment HFC to Pheonix

3. NOA received (or not so if not by recorded or special delivery).

4. Phoenix obtain permission from court to be substituted as claimant.

5. Appear in court.

Is this correct?

R

 

Correct

 

The notice was not sent by recorded delivery.

 

The assignment was mentioned to me when I called Weightman's to see if they will discontinue. I then wrote to them and asked for copy assignment, just ignored and the subsequently this was revealed during the process.

 

here is the NOA

 

NOA picture by 123GGGG_2008 - Photobucket

[humbleman]

Hopefully should have the trial transcript by Tuesday, need to line up a barrister. The Judgment need to be approved by the trial Judge, I have no doubt that she will be taking her sweet time in approving this fine piece of work.

[RobinWayRobinme]

Correct

 

The notice was not sent by recorded delivery.

 

The assignment was mentioned to me when I called Weightman's to see if they will discontinue. I then wrote to them and asked for copy assignment, just ignored and the subsequently this was revealed during the process.

 

here is the NOA

 

NOA picture by 123GGGG_2008 - Photobucket

 

Just had a look at NOA, subject to the date of assignment being correct (can ask to see actual assignment to prove this), the NOA itself looks ok. Seems crucial point is SERVICE. If you have denied receiving this and claimant cannot prove delivery (recorded etc) before the hearing the other day, then IMO no lawful assignment. Would have thought that for Phoenix to be substituted for HFC they would have had to have provided evidence of the fact to th court ie assignment and noa.

 

Are there any other opinions on this?

R

[RobinWayRobinme]

Hopefully should have the trial transcript by Tuesday, need to line up a barrister. The Judgment need to be approved by the trial Judge, I have no doubt that she will be taking her sweet time in approving this fine piece of work.

 

Seems that the transcript of full hearing may be crucial to your appeal. Mine took ages to come through (held up by DJ approving it), but mine was just for the judgment and not crucial for filing appellants notice.

 

You may need to push transcription company hard as your grounds of appeal and SA may be dependant on content of transcript.

R

[humbleman]

this is a letter to them after my call to them

 

Your Client : HFC

 

You say that the above has been assigned to Phoenix, since I have not received any notification from HFC or Phoenix in this matter, the assignment is invalid. If you do have any supporting documents I would welcome sight of them.

 

In any event I would question the right of HFC to assign the same.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

[diddydicky]

full transcript h you need the grumblings of her perceptions in other words those who cant pay and those who wont pay attitude seeing as she thinks you are one of the latter and her dismissal of documents that had been entered had she read the case in an objective manner

 

as far as i can see it is (should be) irrelevant and even if you admit that you are a wont pay - the law should still be applied.

 

this is about whether an agreement can be legally enforced and NOT whether the agreement and the indebtedness exists

 

if the creditor cannot legally enforce the debt - it is none of the judges business if , when or whether you eventually pay the creditor subsequent to the case and she should not bring the moral argument into the equation

 

if the consumer credit act had intended that the debtor should be ordered on moral grounds to pay, even if its provisions were not adhered to by the creditor- then it would have said so

 

personally i think all LIP defences should START with a reminder of the origins and purpose of the CCA

[patrickq1]

I Am Sure It Will Not Come Through As The Complete Article The Mumblings She Made Etc Will Be Omitted ,if This Is The Case What Can Be Done To Get The True Copy Of The Trial Transcript...

[humbleman]

Seems that the transcript of full hearing may be crucial to your appeal. Mine took ages to come through (held up by DJ approving it), but mine was just for the judgment and not crucial for filing appellants notice.

 

You may need to push transcription company hard as your grounds of appeal and SA may be dependant on content of transcript.

R

 

Are you going through an appeal aswell

[patrickq1]

as far as i can see it is (should be) irrelevant and even if you admit that you are a wont pay - the law should still be applied.

 

this is about whether an agreement can be legally enforced and NOT whether the agreement and the indebtedness exists

 

if the creditor cannot legally enforce the debt - it is none of the judges business if , when or whether you eventually pay the creditor subsequent to the case and she should not bring the moral argument into the equation

 

if the consumer credit act had intended that the debtor should be ordered on moral grounds to pay, even if its provisions were not adhered to by the creditor- then it would have said so

 

 

personally i think all LIP defences should START with a reminder of the origins and purpose of the CCA

 

I THINK SHE MADE IT HER BUSINESS WITH HER COMMENTS THAT WERE UNWELCOME AND AGAINST HER BETTER JUDGEMENT LIKE H SAYSSHE SEEMS TO HAVE ALREADY MADE UP HER MIND

[humbleman]

I Am Sure It Will Not Come Through As The Complete Article The Mumblings She Made Etc Will Be Omitted ,if This Is The Case What Can Be Done To Get The True Copy Of The Trial Transcript...

 

 

I have a fairly good recollection of the hearing and the Judgment, so god help those who sin.

[diddydicky]

if it comes through minus the "mumblings" and yet BOTH the defendant and his buddy heard them uttered then i would make a formal complaint as to the fact that the transcript has been altered to delete information which is important to your appeal - namely the judges attitude towards you

[humbleman]

I THINK SHE MADE IT HER BUSINESS WITH HER COMMENTS THAT WERE UNWELCOME AND AGAINST HER BETTER JUDGEMENT LIKE H SAYSSHE SEEMS TO HAVE ALREADY MADE UP HER MIND

 

You can see from the tone of her voice and the look she was giving was like

 

get out of here

[humbleman]

when ever the barrister finished with his bit, I asked the judge if I could say my bit and her reply was I have asked you before if you want anything else to add. I thought, but the barrister keeps bringing new things into argument so I had better clarify.

[patrickq1]

It is sickening isnt it when someone who obviously thinks they are above you ,she has clearly shown bias for limiting your claim in such a way as to frustrate the hearing,she may look back to regret her own actions as any complaints towards her judgements will go against her especially in the future when i looked at her format she is more akin to childrens cases ,her qualities in consumer law is not that good and she cannot handle this ,sooner you were out the better she must have thought...i hope if it goes to apea she gets a dressing down and it reflects on her character in consumer law ...surely she cannot continue in this field of law

just makes you wonder you have spent almost 2/3 years researching and asking for much needed help yet in an hour or so she can throw it into the bin,is 21 days the norm for apeals or is this her being the boss whati say goes ?

[RobinWayRobinme]

as far as i can see it is (should be) irrelevant and even if you admit that you are a wont pay - the law should still be applied.

 

this is about whether an agreement can be legally enforced and NOT whether the agreement and the indebtedness exists AGREE TOTALLY

 

if the creditor cannot legally enforce the debt - it is none of the judges business if , when or whether you eventually pay the creditor subsequent to the case and she should not bring the moral argument into the equation MORALITY DOEN'T COME INTO IT. IF IT DID THE BANKS AND DCA WOULD ALWAYS LOSE

 

if the consumer credit act had intended that the debtor should be ordered on moral grounds to pay, even if its provisions were not adhered to by the creditor- then it would have said so

 

personally i think all LIP defences should START with a reminder of the origins and purpose of the CCA NOT A BAD IDEA

 

H, think you should be aware that NOA can come from someone other that assignor or assignee (think it was denning in Van Lynn, but know I have it somewhere) Any help from others on this?

R

[RobinWayRobinme]

It is sickening isnt it when someone who obviously thinks they are above you ,she has clearly shown bias for limiting your claim in such a way as to frustrate the hearing,she may look back to regret her own actions as any complaints towards her judgements will go against her especially in the future when i looked at her format she is more akin to childrens cases ,her qualities in consumer law is not that good and she cannot handle this ,sooner you were out the better she must have thought...i hope if it goes to apea she gets a dressing down and it reflects on her character in consumer law ...surely she cannot continue in this field of law

just makes you wonder you have spent almost 2/3 years researching and asking for much needed help yet in an hour or so she can throw it into the bin,is 21 days the norm for apeals or is this her being the boss whati say goes ?

 

Yes 21 days correct CPR 52.

[justify]

Just had a look at NOA, subject to the date of assignment being correct (can ask to see actual assignment to prove this), the NOA itself looks ok. Seems crucial point is SERVICE. If you have denied receiving this and claimant cannot prove delivery (recorded etc) before the hearing the other day, then IMO no lawful assignment. Would have thought that for Phoenix to be substituted for HFC they would have had to have provided evidence of the fact to th court ie assignment and noa.

 

Are there any other opinions on this?

R

I may be wrong but I think all they have to prove is that was SENT, not that it was delivered. Well worth checking. BTW I'm up for contributing but cant say how much yet because of current fincial circumstances. So dont want to find i cant pay up what i offer.

 

J

[vjohn82]

As I said I was there... humbleman was denied the opportunity to present his case properly.

 

In hindsight, I would have told him not to go into the Witness Box to be cross examined as the Director of Phoenix was not there. On the other hand the cross examination transcript will reveal how the Judge interfered and treated the whole process with contempt.

 

The more I think about it the more I think there has been a miscarriage of justice and that a complaint is deserved.

[vjohn82]

I may be wrong but I think all they have to prove is that was SENT, not that it was delivered. Well worth checking. BTW I'm up for contributing but cant say how much yet because of current fincial circumstances. So dont want to find i cant pay up what i offer.

 

J

 

s.196 of the Law of Property Act 1925

 

Proof of service is via registered post - so they would have the serial number which would prove postage via the effective method. Proof of delivery would essentially be the fact it was not "returned to sender".

[humbleman]

H, think you should be aware that NOA can come from someone other that assignor or assignee (think it was denning in Van Lynn, but know I have it somewhere) Any help from others on this?

R

 

I agree, no issues there.

 

It is on a letter heading of Weigtmans.

 

This is a very important issue

 

Now look at this logically, how can a legal firm act for 2 parties in the same matter.

 

PLEASE NOTE- THERE HAS BEEN NO ASSIGNMENT, I BELIEVE 100% THAT HFC ARE CALLING THE SHOTS.

 

It is not by coincidence that the debt was allegedly sold to a company by the name of Phoenix, it is actually a phoenix company.

 

Google phoenix and you will see what I mean