Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)

Closed Thread
Page 1 of 5
1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 97
  1. #1
    Royalties Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Download our toolbar
    pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    13,465

    Default CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Ok, lets clear up some confusion over the two provisons of the CPR which people seem to use in equal measure to obtain documents when they recieve a claim

    CPR part 18icon.

    What is part 18 for?

    Part 18 is for information purposes, so for example if the lender sends you three sets of terms and conditions during the course of proceedings and you are not sure which set relates to what? then you make a part 18 request.

    The same applies if you need to clarify what happened with some of the money they are claiming , for example if the agreement has an amount of credit of say 10k but you only received 5k, then you would make a part 18 request for further information to clarify the points.

    In any event BEFORE making a request you MUST read part 18 and Practice Direction 18

    you will note that a Part 18 request can be in a letter format but it must set out that it is made pursuant to PART 18 and is intended to have Part 18 effect.

    you MUST also avoid putting anything other than part 18 requests in the letter, so dont start telling them about what Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead said in Wilson................... . cos that will damage the request.

    The alternative request under part 18 is as follows






    IN THE XXXXXXXXX
    COUNTY COURT CLAIM NO:


    BETWEEN:

    XXXXXXXXXX
    Claimant


    and


    XXXXXXXXXXX

    Defendant


    _________________________ _________________________ ___________________
    PART 18 REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION
    _________________________ _________________________ ___________________


    To: XXXXXXXXXX (claimant)

    Please answer the following questions:

    1. What date is shown as the date the Claimant/Defendants account was transferred from XXXXXX to the Claimant/Defendant on the Deed of assignment?

    2. What is the XXXXXXX account number shown on the Deed as being the Claimants/Defendants account?



    TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU








    Ok so Part 18 is NOT for DOCUMENTS


    NOW THEN

    CPR 31.14 and 31.15

    What does this apply to?

    If a party discloses a document by mention of it in amongst others his statement of case, then he has disclosed it and therefore pursuant to rule 31.14 you are entitled to inspect it.

    Therefore you must follow the guidelines, write to the claimant or defendant, make clear the request is made under CPR 31.14 and request to be allowed to inspect or be provided copies of the document mentioned.

    This type of request deals with things like credit agreement, default notice, deed of assignment etc which are mentioned in a claim form.

    CPR 31.15 requires that upon receipt of a request in writing, the claimant must allow inspection of the documents and this must be done in 7 days from receipt of the request, if the claimant refuses then an application Must be made to the court for an order compelling disclosure

    Also, within such a request, you should also seek an extension of time pursuant to CPR 15.5 to allow you time to receive the documents and review them and then formulate your defence.

    you cant defend a claim under an agreement if you don't have the agreement as it is simply absurd to suggest you can,so, dont be panicked into putting in what people say is a "Embarrassed defence" as the rules are there to provide you with the tools and info you need to defend a case, you will not face criticism for using the rules by the court, but you will face a huge costs order if you muck around and file spurious and merit-less embarrased defences which have no legal basis.

    Use the rules properly and you may face a discontinuance notice, use the rules WRONGLY and you will face summary judgement or a charging order or worst a order for sale.

    For actual letters for requesting info under CPR 31.14 see this thread as it will assist you greatly

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...eal-their.html

    I hope this helps clarify things

    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  2. #2
    Gold Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Download our toolbar
    vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative vjohn82 Authoritative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Mar 2009
    I am in
    the Earth's biosphere
    Posts
    3,652

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Nice info there pt... I'm sure we will all benefit from this knowledge.

    Would you agree CPR 32.19 is also useful for pinning the creditor down?


  3. #3
    Basic Account Holder volvo Novitiate

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Aug 2006
    I am in
    UK
    Posts
    549

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    I sent Morgans a CPR31.14 request which they have totally ignored, so have issued a N244icon requesting strike out, waiting to be considered by Northampton at the moment.

    I also sent them seperately a CPR18 request which they have finally responded to and sent redacted DOA etc with copy application form and advised they are waiting for original terms & conditions and copy default notices dut they advised DN not required as they are only claiming arrears, actually they have claimed the full balance outstanding amounting to £8.5K and they also offered an extension for filing defence till end of May due to their late response.

    Is the N244 strike out request the correct route following PT's suggestion of CPR31.14 application and does the fact they responded without T&C to CPR18 change anything?

    VOLVO


  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder alangee Novitiate

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Sep 2008
    I am in
    Hampshire nr Southampton
    Posts
    500

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Volvo

    Exactly the same thing happened to me, so I sent them a CPR 31.15 asking to inspect the originals. They replied by saying that they do not have the originals, so I issued an N244icon requesting that they supply the originals for inspection.

    Their defence to this is CPR 31.3 (they actually say 31.13), which states that "a party to whom a document has been disclosed has a right to inspect except where - (a) the document is no longer in control of the party who disclosed it", and CPR 31.8. This says, "(1) A party’s duty to disclose documents is limited to documents which are or have been in his control. (2) For this purpose a party has or has had a document in his control if –(a) it is or was in his physical possession;

    (b) he has or has had a right to possession of it; or

    (c) he has or has had a right to inspect or take copies of it."


    They also say that if I want a copy I should go to the original creditor,and finally that if they were forced to submit the originals Cabot " would not be on an equal footing with regards to the evidence".


    They seem to ignore the fact that either they (Morgans) or Cabot have modified the documentation to suit their claim, and I shall have great enjoyment in showing that to the court.


    Alan


  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder volvo Novitiate

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Aug 2006
    I am in
    UK
    Posts
    549

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Thanks AG

    Surely, If my N244icon strike out request fails, and it goes to a hearing then Morgans HAVE to produce the original terms and conditions, copy or otherwise.?

    VOLVO


  6. #6
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    Hadituptohere Informative Hadituptohere Informative Hadituptohere Informative Hadituptohere Informative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Dec 2007
    I am in
    Lancashire Lurking around
    Posts
    1,100

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Quote Originally Posted by alangee View Post



    They also say that if I want a copy I should go to the original creditor,and finally that if they were forced to submit the originals Cabot " would not be on an equal footing with regards to the evidence".
    Can anyone please explain or expand on this??? or is it usual cabot/morhgans nonsence????

    Hadituptohere


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder alangee Novitiate

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Sep 2008
    I am in
    Hampshire nr Southampton
    Posts
    500

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Hi Hadit

    I assume that they mean that as they do not have the originals, then they would be at a disadvantage in presenting their case. The mere fact that either Morgans or Cabot have photoshopped the evidence that they have presented to the court for this CPR31.15 hearing would put them at more of a disadvantage.

    I am interested to find out what happens to claimants who modify documentation to help prove their claim.

    Alan


  8. #8
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    Hadituptohere Informative Hadituptohere Informative Hadituptohere Informative Hadituptohere Informative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Dec 2007
    I am in
    Lancashire Lurking around
    Posts
    1,100

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Hi Alan

    But if morgans have already issued this claim in court and dont have the original, CPR requires the original and morgans are claiming to be at a disadvantage, whos fault is that?

    Hadituptohere


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder mabadilico Novitiate

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Jun 2009
    I am in
    England
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    I had a similar situation in which I asked for docs by CPR18. The DCAicon ignored the request and the DJ also ignored my request to adjorn. Instead the DJ finalised the CO, set aside the ealier judgement of instalment order and reinstated the default judgement from Northampton Court. I want to use N244icon and set aside the original CCJ by claiming defective default notice and letter of NoA was not sent registered.

    Any advice welcome.


  10. #10
    Site Team citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB's Avatar

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Dec 2007
    I am in
    Back of beyond
    Posts
    56,145

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Quote Originally Posted by mabadilico View Post
    I had a similar situation in which I asked for docs by CPR18. The DCAicon ignored the request and the DJ also ignored my request to adjorn. Instead the DJ finalised the CO, set aside the ealier judgement of instalment order and reinstated the default judgement from Northampton Court. I want to use N244icon and set aside the original CCJ by claiming defective default notice and letter of NoA was not sent registered.

    Any advice welcome.
    If you have acknowledged receipt of the Notice of Assignment, it makes little difference IMHO, if it was sent by Registered post or carrier pigeon . (of course I could be wrong and will no doubt be corrected if so)

    Was the Notice of Assignment correct, in dates of assignment, value assigned, etc. Have you started your own thread on this.


    Please consider making a small donation to help keep this site running
    Click here to donate through PayPal (opens in a new window)



    1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE
    2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries
    3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here
    4: Staying Calm About Debt Read Here
    5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

    BCOBS

    2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you
    3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules
    4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly
    5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS



    Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

    PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  11. #11
    Banned diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative diddydicky Authoritative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Feb 2009
    I am in
    kent
    Posts
    8,998

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    as Cit B says

    the whole point is to satisfy that service has been effected- therefore if someone admits receipt(service) of a document or notice- then any argument as to whether it was or was not served as prescribed is totally irrelevant- the purpose has been served (and so have you!)


  12. #12
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Dec 2007
    I am in
    London
    Posts
    1,022

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadituptohere View Post
    Can anyone please explain or expand on this??? or is it usual cabot/morhgans nonsence????

    Hadituptohere
    Can someone please chip in on Hadituptohere's earlier question? It's a very important and fundamental point for all of us.

    If the originals have been requested (repeatedly) and can no longer be produced for whatever reason, does the Court or Judge have any leeway? Or do they have to Order the disclosure or a Strike Out if disclosure cannot be made?

    Also, is there any significant difference between a true copy that has 'your signatureicon' on it and a copy that does not? What I'm trying to ascertain is how far can the 'produce the original with my signature argument' be taken?


    The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out!
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  13. #13
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar's Avatar

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,758

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    IMHO, I would say its the usual cabot
    s/ morons nonsense.
    Of course they would be at a disadvantage. But then effectively so are you without sight of the original document.
    So if they are saying ask the original lender, that would be your next port of call.
    You'll request it, they most likely wont have it, so what youre left with is a fabrication.
    Now its up to you to put your argument across so the judge cannot be in any doubt of his/her power to proceed or dismiss the claim.
    You MUST stick to your guns and if need be apply to the court for an order. This will have costs involved, but apart from upholding the law,, The court is there to make money after all.
    Those wigs cost an awful lot you know.


  14. #14
    Basic Account Holder alangee Novitiate

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Sep 2008
    I am in
    Hampshire nr Southampton
    Posts
    500

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Hi All

    We have asked the OC for a copy of the original via s78 and SARicon, but all they can provide are statements. We have a letter from the Information Commissioners Office stating that "no documentation was ever transferred from Monument to Barclaycard".

    As I have said above, Cabot/Morgans have modified the documentation that they purport to be an agreement as well - which I can demonstrate to the DJ.

    Alan


  15. #15
    Site Team citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB Highly authoritative citizenB's Avatar

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Dec 2007
    I am in
    Back of beyond
    Posts
    56,145

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Originally Posted by alangee



    They also say that if I want a copy I should go to the original creditor,and finally that if they were forced to submit the originals Cabot " would not be on an equal footing with regards to the evidence".
    So Cabot took on an account for which there was no agreement ? They are now taking you to court. I would have thought that it was for them to provide evidence not you ?

    I dont understand Cabot saying they would not be on an equal footing ? If they have the original, then they should let you have sight of or a copy of them.


    Please consider making a small donation to help keep this site running
    Click here to donate through PayPal (opens in a new window)



    1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE
    2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries
    3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here
    4: Staying Calm About Debt Read Here
    5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

    BCOBS

    2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you
    3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules
    4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly
    5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS



    Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

    PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  16. #16
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Dec 2007
    I am in
    London
    Posts
    1,022

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Quote Originally Posted by alangee View Post
    As I have said above, Cabot/Morgans have modified the documentation that they purport to be an agreement as well - which I can demonstrate to the DJ.

    Alan
    Have you pointed this out to them or are you leaving it as ammo? If you point it out to them and they still proceed against you, it would be even more powerful as an argument.

    The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out!
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  17. #17
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar Highly informative bazaar's Avatar

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,758

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    invite them to withdraw and you wont apply for costs


  18. #18
    Basic Account Holder DizzieDiva2010 Novitiate DizzieDiva2010's Avatar

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    939

    Cool Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Quote Originally Posted by pt2537 View Post
    Ok, lets clear up some confusion over the two provisons of the CPR which people seem to use in equal measure to obtain documents when they recieve a claim

    CPR part 18icon.

    What is part 18 for?

    Part 18 is for information purposes, so for example if the lender sends you three sets of terms and conditions during the course of proceedings and you are not sure which set relates to what? then you make a part 18 request.

    The same applies if you need to clarify what happened with some of the money they are claiming , for example if the agreement has an amount of credit of say 10k but you only received 5k, then you would make a part 18 request for further information to clarify the points.

    In any event BEFORE making a request you MUST read part 18 and Practice Direction 18

    you will note that a Part 18 request can be in a letter format but it must set out that it is made pursuant to PART 18 and is intended to have Part 18 effect.

    you MUST also avoid putting anything other than part 18 requests in the letter, so dont start telling them about what Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead said in Wilson................... . cos that will damage the request.

    The alternative request under part 18 is as follows



    Ok so Part 18 is NOT for DOCUMENTS


    NOW THEN

    CPR 31.14 and 31.15

    What does this apply to?

    If a party discloses a document by mention of it in amongst others his statement of case, then he has disclosed it and therefore pursuant to rule 31.14 you are entitled to inspect it.

    Therefore you must follow the guidelines, write to the claimant or defendant, make clear the request is made under CPR 31.14 and request to be allowed to inspect or be provided copies of the document mentioned.

    This type of request deals with things like credit agreement, default notice, deed of assignment etc which are mentioned in a claim form.

    CPR 31.15 requires that upon receipt of a request in writing, the claimant must allow inspection of the documents and this must be done in 7 days from receipt of the request, if the claimant refuses then an application Must be made to the court for an order compelling disclosure

    Also, within such a request, you should also seek an extension of time pursuant to CPR 15.5 to allow you time to receive the documents and review them and then formulate your defence.

    you cant defend a claim under an agreement if you don't have the agreement as it is simply absurd to suggest you can,so, dont be panicked into putting in what people say is a "Embarrassed defence" as the rules are there to provide you with the tools and info you need to defend a case, you will not face criticism for using the rules by the court, but you will face a huge costs order if you muck around and file spurious and merit-less embarrased defences which have no legal basis.

    Use the rules properly and you may face a discontinuance notice, use the rules WRONGLY and you will face summary judgement or a charging order or worst a order for sale.

    For actual letters for requesting info under CPR 31.14 see this thread as it will assist you greatly

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...eal-their.html

    I hope this helps clarify things
    Well written.


  19. #19
    Classic Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Make a contribution
    bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative bustthematrix Informative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Dec 2007
    I am in
    London
    Posts
    1,022

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    Hi PT2537

    Can you please calrify something relating to CPR and track allocations?

    I've read somewhere that full CPRules do not apply to all tracks equally. Is this correct?

    Apparently, for small claimsicon track some CPR requests can be disregarded by either party if they deem it 'unreasonable or disproportionate'. Any CPR request in such circumstances would then require a judge/court order to be complied with.

    Your thoughts please? Ta

    The matrix is intrinsically flawed. Within it is the program for it's own destruction. If you are reading this, you are in the matrix and it's days are numbered...so watch out!
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  20. #20
    Royalties Account Holder
    Help the CAG!!
    Download our toolbar
    pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative pt2537 Highly authoritative

    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter

    Cagger since
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: CPR part 18 vs CPR 31.14 Confused? well read here

    an unallocated claim is considered multi track so no probs there

    If the claim is allocated to the SCT, then, i would suggest that an application would be suitable

    however, i must qualify this statement and say that, at the point of issue and seeking disclosure you will not be allocated therefore the full disclosure rules apply


Closed Thread
Page 1 of 5
1 2 3 ... LastLast

Viewing CAG on a small screen? Switch to the mobile version of the site

Reclaim the Right Ltd. - reg.05783665 in the UK reg. office:- 923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE