BLS No CCA but still demanding payment

[poker_mad]

I'm more confused than ever, plus I'll never get to the post office on time now anyway.

[poker_mad]

Defence sorted and handed in.

[ODC]

Good Luck!!!

[poker_mad]

Details Of Court Oder

 

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[Gingerbaby]

Hello all

[Gingerbaby]

Hello all

I have recently received a letter from Lloyds TSB in response to a CCA request that has been ongoing since last year and now i am uncertain of what action i need to take the letter basicallstates the following

" With regards personal that was advanced on 24 September 1998 in my name that a copy of the signed credit agreement should have ben provided to me as part of the standard procedure to taxke out this loan.

 

Regrettably due to the passage of time they are no longer able to obtain a copy of the original credit agreement. whilst we are obliged to retain such documents for a reasonable period they do not feel that it would be realictic for them to be expected to hold a copy of the agreement for some 9 years after the inception of this.

In july 2001 the account was closed and passed to the DCA and a default notice was issued in March 2001 and a Formal Demand in May 2001.

 

Suince july 2001 the sum of £**** has been repaid against the balance and used to reduce the debt accordingly.

 

As no payment has been on the account since July 2007 (may add at the instrcution of BLS whom stated the payments were now £0.00) they appointed Debt Mangers as they di not recover the balance Robisnson Way was then instructed and since the file has now been passed back to Llyods (mainly as they are unable to provide the CCA)

 

They have now informed me that the will partially uphoild the complaint as they are unable to provide a copy of the agreement due tot he length of time that has eplaed but they do alo feel that as paymets have been made on the account that i am still liable for the 50% of the balance which is just over £2.5k

 

Does anyone have any advice or letters i may be able to use in response as i have 28 days to reply but am still unable to settlethe account in full

[poker_mad]

If they have no agreement then you don't have to pay them a penny unless you want to. If they take you to court they wont get far.

 

The Default removal is a long process, if you do want to pay anything make sure that the default removal is part of the deal. Make sure you put without prejudice at the top of the letter to stop them using it in court.

[poker_mad]

The claimant has until 4pm on the 9th May to reply to my defence. What if anything could i expect from them?

 

Both parties have to give standard disclosure bu 4pm on the 23rd May, Can anyone tel me what that involves?

[poker_mad]

Bump

[Docman]

Hi PM

 

All the first means is that lloyds TSB have the opportunity to redraft their claim. All you can do is wait to see what turns up.

 

As to the standard disclosure, that is just about showing each other what documents you have to support or refute the claims. Again you should not be bothered un til you see the amended claim.

 

My suggestion is simple. As you can't do anything more for at least a week, have a break and enjoy the bank holiday. The sun may even shine for us. Cheers.

[The GodMother]

please dont curse us on the sun shining.

[The Lantana]

Fingers crossed poker_mad

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[poker_mad]

Today I recieved the reply to my amended defence from Lloyds solicitors sc&m. A total of 9 pages working through the paragraphs of my defence either noting, or adding a coment in reply.

 

The only major changes are that they have spend a few pages defending their failure to prove that a default notice was sent and then at the end removing it as evidence as it is a reconstruction and not a copy.

 

In the final paragraphs they make 3 statements which I find interesting.

 

1, They admit that the court has the power to declare the agreement unenforceable.

 

2, They state that although I have asked the court to find the agreement unenforceable, I have not made a Part 20 counterclaim for declaratory relief, or paid the fee so I may not make such a claim.

 

3, They also state to the court that should the agreement be found invalid the granting of a declaration would be inappropriate as the defendant has had the benift of funds from the claimant.

 

Any advice on my next action? I think my case is getting stornger and they are now understanding that I will continue to the end.

 

I also need to prepare my disclosure list for the court, any advice would be great.

[pt2537]

 

 

1, They admit that the court has the power to declare the agreement unenforceable.YEP it most certainly does

2, They state that although I have asked the court to find the agreement unenforceable, I have not made a Part 20 counterclaim for declaratory relief, or paid the fee so I may not make such a claim.Well, im not so sure that you indeed need to make a counterclaim for this, section 127 allows the court to declare it unenforceable in its own right.you could have brought the claim under s142 but in this case its not needed as 127(3) will do the job nicely

 

3, They also state to the court that should the agreement be found invalid the granting of a declaration would be inappropriate as the defendant has had the benift of funds from the claimant. AND? totally irrelevent, so what if you have had the money, they need to read wilson and the other cases which have looked at this issue

 

Any advice on my next action? I think my case is getting stornger and they are now understanding that I will continue to the end.

 

I also need to prepare my disclosure list for the court, any advice would be great.

 

as for your disclosure by list, how long do you have to get it submitted?

[poker_mad]

Ive just been reading their reply to my defence and noticed a nice little paragraph which they have added. " It is further noted that the defendant does not deny that a sum of money has been advanced to him pursuant to the agreement and has not yet been repaid. It is averred thet, notwithstanding the relevant anactments, the defedant seeks on technical grounds to avoid repaying a sum of money which he owes to the claimants"

I wonder if they have a little fit on the court room floor like a kid in a supermarket?

[ODC]

Ive just been reading their reply to my defence and noticed a nice little paragraph which they have added. " It is further noted that the defendant does not deny that a sum of money has been advanced to him pursuant to the agreement and has not yet been repaid. It is averred thet, notwithstanding the relevant anactments, the defedant seeks on technical grounds to avoid repaying a sum of money which he owes to the claimants"

I wonder if they have a little fit on the court room floor like a kid in a supermarket?

That would be the agreement that they cannot produce then:rolleyes:.

[nicklea]

notwithstanding the relevant anactments,

 

Of course, this is just a posh way of saying ignore the law

 

the defedant seeks on technical grounds to avoid repaying a sum of money which he owes to the claimants"

 

and these technical grounds would be the ones that the House of Lords agree with.

 

I'm sure that you've already included these quotes from the various cases, but if not:-

 

1. In the case of Dimond v Lovell [2000] UKHL 27, Lord Hoffmann said , at page 1131:-

“Parliament intended that if a consumer credit agreement was improperly executed, then subject to the enforcement powers of the court, the debtor should not have to pay.”

2. Sir Andrew Morritt, Vice Chancellor in Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 633 said at para 26 that in the case of an unenforceable agreement:-

“The creditor must…be taken to have made a voluntary disposition, or gift, of the loan monies to the debtor. The creditor had chosen to part with the monies in circumstances in which it was never entitled to have them repaid;”

3. When this case was appealed to the House of Lords on a matter regarding the Human Rights Act (Wilson & Ors v Secretary of State for Trade and Industry [2003] UKHL 40), Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead said:-

[49] The message to be gleaned from sections 65, 106, 113 and 127 of the Consumer Credit Act is that where a court dismisses an application for an enforcement order under section 65 the lender is intended by Parliament to be left without recourse against the borrower in respect of the loan… when legislation renders the entire agreement inoperative, to use a neutral word, for failure to comply with prescribed formalities the legislation itself is the primary source of guidance on what are the legal consequences. Here the intention of Parliament is clear.

[poker_mad]

Thanks for the info, could anyone help with a discloseure list and how it's set out?

[pt2537]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1347693.html

 

that should help

[poker_mad]

Thanks pt, thats put me at ease.

 

Quick question. As the agreement only exists on mircofilm, they are using a photo copy of the front and also a photocopy of the rear. There is nothing handwriten on the rear, nothing which can be used to show that it was attached to the agreement.

 

The only thing I can think of is them showing the court a blank agreement from the time, if they have one. I dont think this will stand up in court, anyone have a different take on this?

[poker_mad]

bump

[gonnagetthemback]

Hi, I am also being chased by BLS even although they have ignored my CCA request in Oct, Nov and Jan!!! They are threatening legal action now!!!

 

Any advise is much appreciated

[citizenB]

Hi, I am also being chased by BLS even although they have ignored my CCA request in Oct, Nov and Jan!!! They are threatening legal action now!!!

 

Any advise is much appreciated

 

 

Just write back saying they havent complied with your CCA request of [date] and you would appreciate receiving a copy of it at their earliest convenience. You sent the £1.00 fee ?

[star_scream]

I understand that this is a good letter when they threaten legal action. Add it to your letter explaining that you haven't received the CCA yet.

 

WARNING:

THIS IS A REQUEST UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE.

I am in receipt of your letter dated [] sent me regarding the above accounts, in which you have indicated that there is an "imminent court action" should I not respond to your letter.

 

Given that this matter is now subject to a potential legal proceeding, you are obliged to provide, under the Civil Procedures Rules, information to ensure that all parties are on an equal footing, and also to ensure the claim is dealt with expediently and fairly, avoiding an unnecessary burden to the court's resources.

 

Under the Pre-action Practice Directions - Protocols 4.6 of the Civil Procedures Rules, I request that you supply copies of the following documents:

 

1) A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened. Please note that a "true copy" as defined by the Consumer Credit Act will not be acceptable in this case, and a copy of the actual executed agreement, including signature, is required.

 

2) All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to

1. A transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, payments and both the amounts of credit and any repayments made to the account.
   
2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations
   
3. Where there has been any event in the account history over this period that has required manual intervention by any person, disclosure of any indication or notes that have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to the account held by our client with Halifax is required.
   
4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you sent to me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.
   
5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).
   
6. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.
   
7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.
   
8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998.
   
9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.
   

j.Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

This information is required within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to deny me the opportunity to review my position in relation to your claim of alleged breach of agreement and any possible counter-claim.

 

Please note that, as you have initiated this action, failure to respond to this letter will place this account in clear dispute and as such you may not:

• demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• add any further interest or charges to the account.
  
• pass/sell the account or outstanding balance to any third party.
  
• register any information in respect of the account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• issue a default notice related to the account.
  

Should you ignore any of the above I reserve the right for legal action for redress, and will show the court this letter. I will also report your actions to any authority that I see fit and will request that your suitability to hold a consumer credit license to be reviewed.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Yours Faithfully,

[poker_mad]

Am I right in thinking that a disclosure list is only a list of documents that I can supply copies of and which I wish to rely upon in court and doesn't include the case law that I will rely on in court?