Is My Agreement Enforceable - Useful

[jaystar2020]

Hi

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful-10.html

 

Post 190 has a letter regarding CCA Default.

 

I read here yesterday that online agreements after 2004 are valid without a copy in writing - worth checking that though.

 

J

[toxicdebt]

Can anyone clarify the meaning of "Within the 4 corners" rule for the prescribed terms?

 

Example: My prescribed terms are on the back (i think), my signiture is on the front. Would this mean the terms are not within the 4 corners of the agreement?

 

My CCA scans can be found in post 26 here.... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/163837-toxic-mbna-2.html

[jaystar2020]

Hi

another potentially useful letter here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/177761-recieved-mbna-cca-request.html#post1919069

 

at Post 7.

 

Cheers

J

[foolishgirl]

Can anyone clarify the meaning of "Within the 4 corners" rule for the prescribed terms?

 

Example: My prescribed terms are on the back (i think), my signiture is on the front. Would this mean the terms are not within the 4 corners of the agreement?

 

 

Followed your link to your scans toxicdebt. IMO there is certainly something v. odd going on with these agreements but for the moment, to clarify the '4 corners' rule - an agreement can consist of more than 1 page & the prescribed terms can be contained on more than 1 page; however in order for the agreement to be considered valid & enforceable under the CCA1974, there must be some definable links to connect all the pages i.e. to be within the 4 corners of the agreement. eg the second sheet supplied was actually a copy of the back of the first sheet but in the absence of an original, the creditor would have to prove that Sheet 2 was indeed the reverse of Sheet 1. This could be that clauses on sheet 1 specifically referred to clauses on sheet 2 & a tangible link could b shown or that sheet 1 & 2 contained the same ref. nos. etc. or that they were numbered/dated definitively.

 

Regarding your own case, you may wish to make an application under CPR 31.16 for your CCA. Pt has started a v. useful thread on this subject here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

[toxicdebt]

"Hi Foolishgirl

 

Many thanks for the helpful advice. I have read the thread you mention and think I will be heading down that route (seeing as I have two cca's one executed before I even signed it!)

 

However I would like to dispute the debt first, and am trying to find a valid reason to do this.

 

I am thinking of using the fact they have not supplied the original terms that the cca referrs to using 'Section 11(g) SI1983/1557' which states (as quoted from another GAGer)... " the creditor is supposed to send a copy of the agreement and any document referred to in it. If the application refers to terms that aren’t on the application itself then they must therefore be in another document – a copy of this document must also be supplied. There’s no way round this argument for the creditor"

[jaystar2020]

Hi Toxicdebt

 

Yes, good point, mine too has a reference to t's and c's, but no indication that they are located on the reverse of the Application form...so where is the link, where are these t's and c's we are signing for...etc.

Also, FULL t's and c's should legally be provided methinks - how can a contract be fair and binding if the fully disclosed terms etc are not provided for the signatory at the time.

This basically says - sign this 'application', we'll hold you to it, AND all the terms that we provide at some later date that you don't know about yet...er, yeah, ok, sounds reasonable...NOT!

 

I'm sorry, this is not a legal point, my opinion, but I am fighting the battle this way. Such as 'Read condition 11 in the Terms and Conditions' (yours states this too) - the paragraph goes on to discuss Information Privacy - yet Condition 11 on the 'back' is about varying the interest rate???

 

Also the application (yours too) states 'Terms and Conditions provided'. However, the reverse shows 'Financial and related Conditions'...so where are the 'Terms' referred to?

 

Hope this helps

J

[volvo]

an anyone confirm if the CCA Agreement in the link is valid and enforceable please

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/176266-volvo-capital-one-lowell.html

 

Thanks

 

VOLVO

[web2dude]

Any thoughts on my thread here, greatly received prior to posting tomorrow - as follows: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/179428-egg-cca-request-next.html

 

Thanks

[carlose]

any second opinion on whether mine is enforceable (it looks like they have included th epresrcibe terms & my name & address was on front / signature date on back) would be gratefully received! they've given me until today to respond to a 'concilatory offer' before they service bankruptcy on me on 27th!

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/177164-capquest-need-help-second.html

[cymruambyth]

Hello, please could someone look at my thread, I think the CCA is correct, but would like confirmation before I reply!

Thank you

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/179796-rob-way-cahoot-cca.html

[belleofstmark]

Hello, Please could you take a look at my scanned agreements and offer adivice on whether they are enforceable - some are not signed by the Student Loans Company - most are unreadable and on one my signature is not visible at all - these are the copies that they have sent me after my request for all data they hold about me.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/180061-student-loans-company-thesis.html#post1942066

 

Thanks for your help

[friendinneed]

Can I ask . I have had an ongoing issue with th ever popular Cabot re a monument card from years ago. Anyway long story short they sent a letter last week so say that the debt is unenforcable but I should not take this as an agreement to wroite if off. What exactly do they mean?

[foolishgirl]

They mean they accept they would have no case in court (i.e. you won't get a summons) but it will stay on your credit files as a debt & they would like payment please.

 

The defaults will drop off your credit file in 6 years from the date they were applied.

 

It's up to you whether you offer them any payments or a F&F settlement with the proviso that your credit file is marked 'satisfied' or indeed, since they cannot enforce it, they write it off.

Edited January 27, 2009 by foolishgirl
addition

[carlose]

Right, welcome back after Christmas. It's been a while as my username changed and I couldn't log in for a while!

 

So further information on my CCA:

 

GE Money - sent a photocopy of my credit agreement

 

MBNA - sent me a letter with the cca (it says original and current but only the current terms and conditions are there), a scan of the signature reply slip that has my signature on it and my last statement

 

egg - sent me a photocopy of the orignal agreement and a whole load of screen shots from their website stating the terms and conditions. This account is in default. I am supposed to be paying a third party company but after reading on this site I should only pay monies to egg is that correct?

 

Are these what I need from them? The next thing I will do is scan them and post each on an individual thread.

 

In the meantime I need to send them an account in dispute letter, is there a template for one on here, if so I am struggling to find it?

 

Is there anything else I should be doing?

 

Thanks for all of your help so far. Fingers crossed they and unenforceable.

 

Best regards C

 

did you get any answer on the egg CCA? only i have a thread of my own where i have scanned up a copy of an 'agereement' by capquest photopcopied back to back. Does this look similar to yours and would it be enforceable do you think? No one seems able to tell me and i can't find anyone in the same position on this site.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/177164-capquest-need-help-second.html

[lordsnooty01]

When the CCA came back what else came with it?

 

I would suggest you send a Subject Access Request to the bank/loan company and get a full breakdown of the account, statements etc to find out what is on it and how these figures add up and also to the DCA.

... And, the DCA, have they purchased the debt or just acting as an agent? If they purchased the debt, did they write and tell you, did the bank write and tell you?

 

You'll probably find that the dca has had this a long while and been wracking up interest on it at a grand rate of knots, plus a whole load of charges so you need full statements from both Original creditor and the DCA. If you are uncomfortable with the amount then I suggest you inform the dca that the account is now officially in dispute so they cannot go passing it around until the dispute is settled.

 

Thank you for your information.

 

I have since heard back from these guys and they have (after 5 attempts of me requesting information and them not providing) now written to me to advise they will not be pursuing the debt!!!This due to it being uneconomic. Naturally this is great news. I could not have done it without being armed with your valuable information, again thank you.

 

One last question, if at all possible: The entry shows on my credit file as a default, which considering they cannot prove the debt should now be removed ???

 

Is this the case and should I now be pursuing the credit agencies to get this removed or is it plainly the norm for this to fester for the required 6 years of alleged default??

 

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

 

Once again, thanks.

[foolishgirl]

 

I have since heard back from these guys and they have (after 5 attempts of me requesting information and them not providing) now written to me to advise they will not be pursuing the debt!!!......

 

One last question, if at all possible: The entry shows on my credit file as a default, which considering they cannot prove the debt should now be removed ???

 

Is this the case and should I now be pursuing the credit agencies to get this removed or is it plainly the norm for this to fester for the required 6 years of alleged default??

 

 

Although they are saying they are not pursuing the debt, unfortunately this doesn't usually mean in their eyes that the debt does not exist & you would prob. have difficulty getting them to agree to remove the default.

However, nothing ventured, nothing gained & a letter of complaint re. the manner in which your account has been handled & the fact that money appears to be have been added without due diligence or justification with a request for the default removal could persuade them to do it. Otherwise you would be in for a long struggle to prove they had no right to record the default etc.

 

The default will drop off your credit files 6 years after its application so depending on when it was recorded, it may just be worth waiting.

 

Good luck.

Edited January 28, 2009 by foolishgirl
typos

[the tinkerman]

Hi was wondering if anyone could give me some advice please I had a an unsecured loan & fell behind with my payments due to getting made redundant hence went to court & i am still paying it back 8 years later via a ccj, my payment goes to a solicitors & about 5 years ago another solicitors took over the payment on this companies behalf of whom i owed the money to, think they where sort of loan sharks as the APR was 50% but i was desperate to keep my family afloat,but then about 3 years ago i got a letter to say a DCA had taken over the debt but i did not receive any confirmation from the solicitors to say they had taken the debt over so i just carried on paying through the solicitors, then about a year later i received another letter from a different DCA stating the had taken over the debt & wanted payment in full, asked me could i not re mortgage my house, kept ringing me up 9 oclock at night etc so i rang the solictors to see what was going on & they confimed this DCA had taken my debt over but i could carry on making the payment through them & they would pass it on,when i told the DCA about this arrangement they where not best pleased & said i should send my payment directly to them but i have just carried on paying it to the solicitors although the DCA keep ringing me up asking me to increase the original payment set by the court Which i cannot afford, only trouble is the original ccj stated they can add 8% each year to the outstanding amount so as u can imagine the debt is just going up each year rather than down.

My question is obviously the original company must have had to present the credit agreement to take me to court 8 years ago but does the same apply where the DCA must have a copy of the original credit agreement to collect the debt even though it has been to court,

or do u think the solicitors might have the original copy or should it still be with the orginal company i had the loan with, bottom line is do i still have the right to ask this DCA for a copy of the original credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act

or is this now null & void because it has already been to court.

[andyathers]

Hello,could somebody help with this CCA.I requested it from American Express.I have attached the letter and CCA they sent(all details blanked out).

It doesnt look like a credit agreement to me.Hope someone could help.

 

Thanks Andy

 

[andyathers]

Hello the letter is above,here is the agreement

 

[foolishgirl]

America & Great Britain are supposed to be two countries split by one language - doesn't this just prove it?!

 

No, it's def. not an enforceable CCA they've sent you Andy & what's all this 'Thank you for Act 1974' Do they think you're Francis Bennion?

 

Think you need to write back & explain in words of one letter why it doesn't fulfil the criteria of CCA1974. No wonder they sent your £1.00 back.

[N.P]

Looks like some sort of an application form written in machine code.

 

They do have a point though, we should thank someone for the Act 1974. We`d all be doomed if it wasn`t for that

 

It might not need signing but it should still contain the required terms and this lump of dump has nothing

 

I wouldn`t have paid a £1 for that nonsense.

 

 

N.P

Edited February 4, 2009 by N.P
Missed a bit

[The GodMother]

Oh i love this.

 

quote from Claire crawford Should you require any further information please feel free to contact us on the number below.

Sample line to put in the letter you sent back.

Please can you send me a machine which can decifer the info u claim to be a CCA1974 failing that could u please send somebody to translate the info.

[OLIVE.FAMILY]

Hi all. Can somebody check out this agreement please. Its for British Credit trust and they seem to have missed the total sum on the agreement. Anyway see for yourself here is the link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/181675-not-sure-how-deal.html

[Ypnos]

I'm utterly confused... Every other thread I've read about this says that they need to send a signed copy (by both parties) of a credit agreement for a debt to be enforceable. Now this thread is telling me that they _don't_ need to provide a signed copy of the credit agreement?? :confused:

[foolishgirl]

They don't need to supply a signed copy under the provisions of S78 CCA1974; however they would need to supply a signed copy if they sought to enforce the agreement through a court. ie. if they issued a summons against you for collection of the debt.

 

However it would then be up to you to force them to produce it as part of your defence procedure. If you didn't take the correct steps to make them comply at this stage, they might go on to apply for judgment against you without producing any CCA, signed or unsigned! And as DJs are not always up to the mark on consumer credit legislation, it could go through almost 'on the nod'.

 

Your judgement at this stage is to guess the probabilites of them being able to produce a signed agrement or not & then taking the appropriate action.