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    • just to be clear here..... the DVLA do not send letters if a drivers licence address differs from any car's V5C that shows the same driver as it's registered keeper.
    • sorry she is a private individual, the cars are parking on her land. she can clamp the cars. only firms were outlawed from doing it bazza. thats what the victims of people dumping cars on their drives near airports did and they didn't not get prosecuted.    
    • The DVLA keeps two records of you. One as a driver and one for your car. If they differ you might find out in around a month when they will send you a reminder as well as to your other half for their car. If you receive nothing then you can be fairly sure that you were tailgating though wouldn't explain why they didn't pick up your car on one of drive past their cameras. However even if you do get a PCN later then your situation will not change. The current PCN does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 which is the main law that covers private parking. It doesn't comply for two reasons. 1. Section 9 [2][a] states  (2)The notice must— (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates; The PCN states 47 minutes which are the arrival and departure times not the time you were actually parked. if you subtract the time you took to drive from the entrance. look for a parking place  park in it perhaps having to manoeuvre a couple of times to fit within the lines and unload the children reloading the children getting seat belts on  driving to the exit stopping for cars pedestrians on the way you may well find that the actual time you were parked was quite likely to be around ten minutes over the required time.  Motorists are allowed a MINIMUM of ten minutes Grace period [something that the rogues in the parking industry conveniently forget-the word minimum] . So it could be that you did not overstay. 2] Sectio9 [2][f]  (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid; Your PCN does not include the words in brackets and in 2a the Act included the word "must". Another fail. What those failures mean is that MET cannot transfer the liability to pay the charge from the driver to the keeper. Only the driver is now liable which is why we recommend our members not to appeal. It is so easy to reveal who was driving by saying "when I parked the car" than "when the driver parked the car".  As long as they don't know who was driving they have little chance of winning in court. This is partly because Courts do not accept that the driver and the keeper are the same person. And because anyone with a valid motor insurance policy is able to drive your cars. It is a shame that you are too far away to get photos of the car park signage. It is often poor and quite often the parking rogues lose in Court on their poor signage alone. I hope hat you can now relax and not panic about the PCN. You will receive many letters from Met, their unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors threatening you with ever higher amounts of money. The poor dears have never read the Act which states quite clearly that the maximum sum that can be charged is the amount on the signs. The Act has only been in force for 12 years so it may take a  few more years for the penny to drop.  You can safely ignore everything they send you unless or until they send you a Letter of Claim. Just come back to us if they do send one of those love letters to you and we will advise on a snotty letter to send them. In the meantime go on and enjoy your life. Continue reading other threads and if you do get any worrying letters let us know. 
    • Hopefully the ANPR cameras didn't pick up the two vehicles, but I don't think you're out of the woods just yet. MET's "work" consists of sending out hundreds of these invoices every week so yours might be a few days behind your partner's. There is also the matter of Royal Mail.  I once sold two second-hand books to someone on eBay.  Weirdly the cost of sending them separately was less than the cost of sending them in one parcel.  So to save a few bob I sent them seperately.  One turned up the next day.  One arrived after four days.  They were  sent from the same post office at the same time! But let's hope I'm being too pessimistic. Please update us of any developments.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

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Civil Enforcement Ltd (again!)


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Hi, all. I received my CEL letter in August last year and have been bombarded with letters ever since, from both CEL & Newlyn. Has anyone ever been taken to court yet? I've not seen or read a thread where anyone has, but I am curious.

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Hi

 

This is my first ever forray into the world of internet forums so bear with me......... it has taken a few minutes to get registerd and understand the links.

 

Like tictactoe's mother I was "caught" in the Colton Retail park parking [problem] having spent over 3 hours there (all in Sainsburys actually!)Upon receiving the notice I had already worked out that I would respond with many of the comments regarding inappropriate use of CCTV number plate recognition, invoices that look like parking tickets etc. but can see that this has all been done before and to no avail. I will almost certainly follow previous advice, refuse to pay and refer debt collectors back to CEL saying that the invoice is in dispute! I may actually spend the £25 offered by "Law Answers" on their site to get them off my back as I know I will continue to be frustrated if continually harassed by further letters! Has anyone any experience of their "service"?

 

Next - how to damage these pirates............... is there perhaps a way that through these forums we could find out where these guys operate and simply boycott the premesis (Or make sure that they do not catch people by warning them)cash shortfalls will quickly cause them to fold! I for one will not use McDonalds in Gatwick looking at the number of postings and will certainly NEVER visit Colton retail park again. As another thought, how about us contacting the retailers involved. I have just written to J Sainsburys saying how disgusted I am that a company if their standing is either using such enforcement companies or accepting their use on sites where they are operating stores. I am sure that a company that large must have some sway to get CEL slung off! As these retailers are encouraging customers to stay longer (bigger stores, cafe's etc)then this is a real problem. If we highlight this and vote with our feet then I am sure that CEL can be sent "bust" by their own clients. Retailers are very conscious of their reputation and I have threatened never to visit Sainsburys again until I receive a satifactory response. Immagine hundreds of such letters to messers Sainsbury's McDonalds etc!

 

good luck everyone with telling CEL where to get off.........

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AtchiP,

 

I understand your frustration, I too came on to these forums in righteous indignation having received one of these bogus tickets.

 

Like much that happens in this country, the whole private parking thing is wrong headed.

 

Retailers abdicate their responsibility to manage their own car parks to these private companies. The management is meant to be self financing, the PPC getting their income from "fines". Sometimes the retailers get a kick back from the PPC from each "fine" paid.

 

If the car park "problems" were actually sorted, there would be no overstays, no non customer parking, no income for the PPC. The PPCs only survive by ensuring that the problems are not resolved, ensuring a residual level of "fines" income for them. In other words, they are paid a premium for mis-managing car parks.

 

By the way, lamma is right about the £25. I'm embarressed to say that I used the service for my first ticket. I was working away from home at the time and was worried that dodgy debt collectors might call round at the house. I did not want to put my wife through the hassle. Now that I know a bit more, I realise that I was taking these [problematic] far too seriously. Personal visits really are very very rare and are easily dealt with.

 

In its defence, the service does work, but then so do the other methods which have the advantage of being £25 cheaper.

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The problem is that people are treated like idiots. People know how to use a car park. Staying 4 hours instead of 2 is hardly the end of the world. Companies complain that 'customers suffer' which is codswallop. It's all an exercise in making money.

 

People respond a lot more positively to a sign explaining WHY they shouldn't park in a disabled spot. It's inconsiderate and makes life hard for those less well off. "Park here and you will get a £40 fine" is using a sledgehammer to miss a nut.

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Hi. Another first time participant.

Civil Enforcement Ltd, carpark in Chingford and staying 10 minutes over the 2 hour no charge period - need I say anymore! This happened in February, I got a letter from CEL at the end of March and I replied using the standard letter of 'please don't contact the registered owner etc'. Things went quiet. Now I have received 2 letters from Newlyn dated 05/06/08 and 16/06/08 to the effect that the matter has been passed to them and they require payment now of £165 to avoid going to the County Court and incurring more charges. Should I be worried that I ahve received 2 letters within 2 weeks? I have been reassured by the posts on here so far and understand the implications of contract law, I just don't appreciate the frequency of the letters from Newlyn. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Don't worry. 2 letters in 2 weeks show they're getting desperate. The fact you responded in the first place would have put you on the hooked fish list.

 

If you respond now again then their eyes will light up and know their letters are getting to someone. They don't want to deal with the invisible man - they're just banging their head against a wall and will have to give up.

 

They won't take you to court.

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Now I have received 2 letters from Newlyn dated 05/06/08 and 16/06/08 to the effect that the matter has been passed to them and they require payment now of £165 to avoid going to the County Court and incurring more charges. Should I be worried that I ahve received 2 letters within 2 weeks?

 

 

No, I wouldn't be worried - standard procedure in my experience.

 

I too have received the same letters (last one sent in April) - I have never replied (didn't want to acknowlege that I exist - the 'hooked fish' syndrome! - I simply ignored and have been waiting for the court summonds - lol :lol:

 

I think they send two letters in quick succession in the hope that this will harrass sufficiently to intimidate into paying.

 

As things have gone quiet for me now for more that 3 months, I guess they've given up on me and moved onto others!?

 

Will post back if I get a summonds - lol

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On balance guys what is your opinion?

 

1. completely ignore all the letters threats from Newlyn etc. or

2. Reply using the templetse on the stickies

 

Have not had the time to bother yet but have written to J Sainsbury (head office) saying that I am disgusted and will not darken their door again etc............... I will post any response.

 

How abpout CEL, do I bother to respond?

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Completely ignore. They aren't going to stop harrassing you just because you send them a template letter - quite the reverse. If you respond they know their letters are reaching someone or is rattled enough to reply and therefore could possibly become rattled enough to pay up.

If you don't respond they'll give up quicker.

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Completely ignore. They aren't going to stop harrassing you just because you send them a template letter - quite the reverse. If you respond they know their letters are reaching someone or is rattled enough to reply and therefore could possibly become rattled enough to pay up.

If you don't respond they'll give up quicker.

 

 

I second that - ignoring has worked for me - lol :lol:

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I was also noticed to park over 2 hours in the co-op - and I shop there evry week - no longer!

 

Got the contravention notice for 40 quid now or 80 quid in a month - denied in writing that i personally parked there.

 

Received a letter back falsly stating that as keeper i am responsible for the fine. Ignored it - Several letters threatening court action - total is now about 200 pounds.

 

Have not heard from them in 4 months and no court action.

 

Just stand your ground. You'll be ok - and never pay the blood sucking leeches.

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Yep, there is no 'appeals process'. You will always get a letter back saying you still have to pay, usually with false and fraudulent declarations of owner liablity.

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Correct. When these people get an appeal their shifty little eyes light up as they know there is a fish at the end of the hook and they have rattled somebody.

 

If you ignore them they get very miffed they're not getting a response as that means no money for them.

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I have sent this letter:-

 

Dear Sirs

 

RE: xxxxxxxx PCN NO. xxxxxxxxx Parking Charge Issue Date: xx/06/2008

 

 

As you have stated in your letter that our client is responsible for the payment of the Parking Charge and we have confirmed to you that our client denies liability to you in any way , our client demands that you institute legal proceedings within 14 days . Our client will submit a defence to your claim and hold you liable for costs incurred as a consequence of and arising as a result of your letter.

 

 

 

 

In accordance with the civil procedure rules, please send us evidence of:

  • 1. The establishment of any contract between our client and yourselves ,
  • 2. The identity of the driver ( including any photographic evidence of parking by our client in the alleged space ) and
  • 3. Your entitlement to collect any money whatsoever.

Neither our client nor us will deal with you or your agents if you fail to issue proceedings.

 

 

In the absence of legal proceedings our client will regard any further contact from you or your agents as harassment.

 

Yours faithfully

Edited by weblawyer
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Help ....getting my self in a tiswas :Cry:

 

I have now sent two letters to CEL following the tempates - the last letter sent two days ago requesting evidence that I as RK was driving, stating that the contract is between the driver and the landowner and stateing that I welcome the oportunity to see them in court as they will not be able to provide the evidence that I was driving.

(there is no way that they can prove I was driving as I wasn't - I have ME and can not drive very far, let alone to the carpark they are refering)

 

However the thing I am getting my self in a tiswas about is that I was told by the Police that it is a Civil matter and therefore can not be brought to County Court ....is this right?? (as I've stated this in the letter)

 

Also my semi retired Mum works for a letting agency and comes across loads of people who have CCJ's and apparently don't know that they have them until reference/credit check is done .... is that possibe?

 

I'm worried that I have got it wrong about the County Court thing and that I will get a CCJ without me knowing about it ..... please help this is playing ahvock with my health :Cry:

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Help ....getting my self in a tiswas :Cry:

 

I have now sent two letters to CEL following the tempates - the last letter sent two days ago requesting evidence that I as RK was driving, stating that the contract is between the driver and the landowner and stateing that I welcome the oportunity to see them in court as they will not be able to provide the evidence that I was driving.

(there is no way that they can prove I was driving as I wasn't - I have ME and can not drive very far, let alone to the carpark they are refering)

 

However the thing I am getting my self in a tiswas about is that I was told by the Police that it is a Civil matter and therefore can not be brought to County Court ....is this right?? (as I've stated this in the letter)

 

If the police told you this they are mistaken.

If what the police told you is that civil matters cannot come before Crown Courts or Magistrates Courts (few exceptions) then they are correct.

County Courts is exactly where most civil cases come.

 

Also my semi retired Mum works for a letting agency and comes across loads of people who have CCJ's and apparently don't know that they have them until reference/credit check is done .... is that possibe?

 

Given that you say your Mum works for a letting agency, I suspect that the people you are talking about are people who change addresses frequently. Papers may have been delivered to an old address and the individual never heard about it. That is how this sort of thing can arise.

 

I'm worried that I have got it wrong about the County Court thing and that I will get a CCJ without me knowing about it ..... please help this is playing ahvock with my health :Cry:

 

Don't let it get to you. You won't get a CCJ without knowing about it if you keep up to date with correspondence and stuff. I'm afraid that your reaction is what these people rely on. Just take comfort in the support from here!

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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Thanks Bernie .... good to know I have the support from here :D My OH is being as much help and support in this as a chocolate tea pot :Cry:

 

This is the wording of the latest letter that I have sent them, I know that I have got it wrong about the County Court thing but I am now getting worried that my letter will strengthen their resolve (especialy the paragraph about the County Court) ...... I will feel much happier if I know what likely response I am to get from them, then I can be prepared.

 

Could you cast your expert eye over the wording, I know its like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but as I said I like to prepare myself.

 

I note that you appear to claim that I, as registered keeper, am legally responsible for this alleged debt which I refute.

In order to substantiate this claim please provide me with copies of the appropriate citations of case and/or statute law.

 

I understand that this alleged debt is for a breach of a parking contract. For your clarification according to contract law a contract is between the two parties entering the contract and no third parties can be held accountable. In this case the contract is between the land owner and the driver of the vehicle NOT the registered keeper of the vehicle which in contract law stands as the third party.

If you insist on pursuing this matter with me please provide evidence that I, as the registered keeper was driving the vehicle on the day in question.

Incidentally in the eyes of the law this is a civil matter as no offence has been committed. Civil matters cannot be held in a County Court, however if you have found some legislation that permits this I would be interested to hear of it, and so no doubt would my solicitor.

I will welcome the opportunity to defend your allegation in court and am confident of success. Of course you will be required to produce the evidence that I have requested and you will have failed to provide. You will also have to answer to the court why you failed to do so.

As per my previous letter please do not correspond with me any further on this matter except to confirm that you will be not taking the matter any further with me as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

Sorry to need so much reassurance on this but its really getting to me :Cry:

 

Thanks in anticipation of your help :)

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Herbie,

 

Your letter looks really good. I'd send it recorded delivery so they can't claim they haven't received it.

 

They'll probably spurt a load of their bumf at you which you can safely ignore. Don't throw it away file it somewhere safe. It will provide evidence if you want to persue a harassment complaint or in the very unlikely event they take you to court.

 

Just to reiterate ignore anything short of court papers, which are extremely unlikely to appear, and get on with your life.

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This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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Herbie,

 

As you've acknowledged, the county court thing is not right. However, ignoring this minor matter, the gist of your letter is absolutely fine - put up or shut up - stop bothering me or take me to court.

 

Don't worry - they won't. As Pin1onu has said, no need to respond to anything further but keep any further letters you receive.

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