PCN at 20:45 in 9AM-9PM street parking bay

[vweb]

Hello,

 

I feel angry about a parking fine received that just stinks like a scheme to be making easy money in a dodgy way.

Parked the car in the following zone at around 20:35:
--- Residence permit holders only OR Mon-Sun 9am-9pm Pay at Machine OR Pay by Phone ---

Took a long walk to find a machine including on adjacent streets - not found. 
Returned to the car at around 20:47 and found a parking ticket timed 20:45 saying they were observing the car from 20:39 to 20:45 (which I suspect is a lie but that's a different topic).

Honestly, how miserable should things be to be cruising streets (or more likely sitting there tight and waiting for a late evening victim) at almost 9pm evening issuing fines? The answer is simple - making money. No other reasons.

Is there any good reasoning / similar case I could use to appeal, including:

a) disproportionate fine considering only 15 minutes left to 9PM - and 9PM being unreasonably late
b) a lie on the sign saying can be payed by Machine, but no Machine found; a local confirmed that paying by phone takes a good 4 minutes at least

Thanks for the advice!

Edited January 27, 2023 by vweb

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

Can you tell us who the ticket is from please - local authority or a private parking company [PPC]?

 

HB

[vweb]

Local Authority. Thanks.

[Homer67]

IMHO I'd pay it as they escalate quickly from Local Authorities and chalk it down to experience, next time sit in the car until the restricted hours have passed and then go look for a pay point.

[Ethel Street]

Arguing that the 9am-9pm 7 days a week restriction is unreasonable or uneccessary will be a complete waste of your time so I wouldn't bother. It's entirely at council's discretion and assuming they didn't make any procedural errors in setting up the restriction and signposting it there is virtually zero possibility of getting your PCN overturned on those grounds.

 

I once went to the parking adjudicator after my council one night decided to ticket residents' cars parked overnight in empty and otherwise unused motorcycle bays in a  quiet suburban side street at 2.30am in the morning! Adjudicator told me that the unreasonableness of both the restriction and the 2.30am ticketing were irrelevant to whether the PCN was valid and he couldn't take it into account. (Although I won on different grounds, restriction not properly signposted in accordance with regulations.)

[vweb]

Isn't a fact that one of the two options is 'Pay by Meter' with no meter found anywhere - a valid reason to argue they confuse people? Paying by phone takes several minutes of time which is ridiculous.

[Michael Browne]

How sure are you that there is no pay macine?  If so, I'd say you have a good case for misleading signage. Council won't agree so you'd have to take it as far as adjudication.

 

What's the exact location.?

[vweb]

Thanks for the tip.

I've checked google maps now just in case.
Basically the whole street (around 200 meters in length) and a few parallel and adjacent streets (maybe around 300m in total length) has the sign around paying by phone OR by meter, and there's NOT a single meter there.
I will definitely log a case for misleading signage. Any specific wording or prior cases etc I could use?
Thanks again.

[Michael Browne]

Location or GSV so we can check as well

[Ethel Street]

On 30/01/2023 at 11:09, vweb said:

Basically the whole street (around 200 meters in length) and a few parallel and adjacent streets (maybe around 300m in total length) has the sign around paying by phone OR by meter, and there's NOT a single meter there.

 

I'll bet they've done what my local council did. Remove all the machines where you could buy a ticket in the street because the council decided they could save money by forcing everyone to pay for parking via their phone. My council did at least manage to alter the signs to cover up the reference to 'Pay at Machine' on the same day as they removed the machines. Sounds like yours didn't.

 

So I agree you have a good case for misleading signage. After all you weren't familiar with the area were you? So how would you be expected to know, arriving there for the first time on a dark cold winter's night, that the machines had been removed? So obviously you went looking for them. And to pay by phone is usually a lengthy and convoluted process. First you have to register your car with whichever Pay by Phone company the council is using because I don't suppose you'd used that service before had you? That can be quite time consuming. Especially if the mobile signal wasn't great at the time. 

 

So all in all you could easily spend more than 15 minutes attempting to pay, by which time they'd given you a PCN.

 

The council probably will reject your reresentations but I reckon you'd have a good chance if you take it to adjudication.

 

There's no specific wording that I'm aware of. Just explain what happened in your own words. Do a draft and post it up for people here to comment on. But first check out the procedures that your council follow and make sure you meet their deadlines.

 

Last time I went to a parking adjudicator they had a search box on their site that let me look for similar cases. You may have to be a bit creative about what words to searh for to find what you want.

 

Make sure you've kept photos showing that signs still say Pay at Machine

 

 

[vweb]

Here's what I am planning to appeal with (Ethel Street and Michael Browne - thank you):

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to appeal the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued on dd/mm/yyyy at hh:mm on XX Road. The alleged contravention is for parking in a residents' or shared used parking space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket.
 

I would like to bring to your attention that the signage in the area is misleading. I read the sign about restrictions and tried to find a parking meter in order to pay as per the sign. I walked for a while trying to locate a parking meter to pay but could not locate one on XX Road or any of the parallel streets - AA Road, BB Road, CC Street, which are several hundred meters in length. I also double checked on Google Maps and did not find any parking meters in the area.
 

By the time I returned to my vehicle, the PCN had already been issued just 15 minutes before the end of the parking regulation period. It is not reasonable to expect me, arriving in the area for the first time on a dark cold winter's night, to know that the parking meters had been removed and that the sign is misleading.
 

I respectfully request that you consider my appeal and cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Thank you for taking the time to review my case.
 

Sincerely,
XYZ

 

Also thinking to add another paragraph as the second point of appeal:

Furthermore, I would like to bring to your attention that the full charge is disproportionate to the contravention, as the PCN was issued just 15 minutes before the end of the controlled hours (out of the total 12 hours). The charge should be proportionate to the contravention, and not excessive or unduly punitive.

[Michael Browne]

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

PCN No: XXXXX

I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued on dd/mm/yyyy at hh:mm on XX Road. The alleged contravention is for parking in a residents' or shared used parking space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket.
 

I would like to bring to your attention that the signage in the area is misleading. The timeplate for that bay clearly states " Mon-Sun 9am-9pm Pay at Machine or Pay by Phone". I read the sign about restrictions and tried to find a parking meter in order to pay as per the sign. I walked for a while trying to locate a parking meter to pay but could not locate one on XX Road or any of the parallel streets - AA Road, BB Road, CC Street, which are several hundred meters in length. I also double checked on Google Maps and did not find any parking meters in the area.

By the time I returned to my vehicle, the PCN had already been issued just 15 minutes before the end of the parking regulation period. It is not reasonable to expect me, arriving in the area for the first time on a dark cold winter's night, to know that the parking meters had been removed and that the sign is misleading.
 

I respectfully request that you consider my appeal and cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Thank you for taking the time to review my case.
 

Sincerely,
XYZ

 

Added sentence to explain why sign is misleading. Forget disproportionate point, penalty is stipulated in the legislation and councils have no discretion (or desire!!) to charge lower amounts.

 

 

Otherwise good to go. I would be very surprised if the council cancel at this stage

 

You could add a paragraph that if the council reject your challenge an they give the exact location of the ticket machine applicable to that bay.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Michael Browne

[vweb]

Thank you Michael, much appreciated!

Logged the challenge with the council, will post the results here.

[vweb]

Challenge refused very quickly  Of course, there's good funding for those salaries! With they could respond to other important matters so fast too.

Main pearl:

"It is the responsibility of the motorist to make the initial payment immediately upon parking and clearly display a valid pay & display ticket in their vehicle or ensure that sufficient payment for parking has been made via the RingGo service. It is not permitted to leave a vehicle without payment of the initial charge."

So the questions arising from the statement above are:

 

a) How can a motorist make an 'initial' payment immediately upon parking and display a valid pay & display ticket when there is no parking machine nearby. 
b) How can a motorist pay via parking machine WITHOUT leaving the vehicle.

c) What's RingGo service - the time plate doesn't mention a RingGo service

I think just this could win the appeal on its own, no? Contradiction in statements I mean.

 

Secondary pearl:

"While I acknowledge you may have had issues locating a Pay & Display machine, there are other alternative methods of paying for parking. The RingGo 'pay by phone' number is stated on the sign at the location (photo attached). There is also a nearby Pay & Display machine at the junction XX. I am satisfied that the keeper remains liable for this PCN"
 

Well, I went there to check this statement about the machine. I don't know how I missed that before, but indeed upon walking about 150 meters there's a junction and tucked away there's a ticket machine on a different street, that can easily be blocked away by a parked car. So basically one ticket machine on a block of 4 roads spanning across 600-700 meters in total.
I think this is also another good reason to appeal, no?

Finally, I'm confused by this:

 

"How to take the case further:

 

1. If you do not pay, we will send a 'Notice to Owner' to the keeper. This form offers the keeper the chance to formally challenge the PCN, or pay the full charge (by this time it will be too late to take advantage of the discount). ....

2. If we still disagree with you, the keeper can take the case to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators; they are independent and their decision is binding on both sides."

So does this indeed mean I cannot appeal now, and need to wait until the council serves me that notice, and I will definitely loose the discounted rate if the appeal is rejected?


Many thanks.

Edited February 7, 2023 by vweb

[Michael Browne]

It would make life a lot simpler if you just tell us the exact location where you parked.

 

 

13 hours ago, vweb said:

So does this indeed mean I cannot appeal now, and need to wait until the council serves me that notice, and I will definitely loose the discounted rate if the appeal is rejected?

Yes you have to wait for the NtO to make formal representations.  If that is made within 14 days of receipt of the NtO and the council still reject, although not required to do so, many councils will re-offer the discount (in the hope that the motorist will throw in the towel and pay up)

 

If your council doesn't and demands the full penalty, then it's a no brainer to appeal to the adjudicator since it won't cost you anymore than the full penalty

[vweb]

Do you think there's a good chance to win the appeal to the adjudicator, given the above? 

[Michael Browne]

On 29/01/2023 at 15:11, Michael Browne said:

What's the exact location.?

 

On 30/01/2023 at 11:16, Michael Browne said:

Location or GSV so we can check as well

 

2 hours ago, Michael Browne said:

It would make life a lot simpler if you just tell us the exact location where you parked

Not going to ask again.