CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW***Claim Dismissed***

[lookinforinfo]

You are getting there  though I would point out in your WS at 2.8 that  you could add  that  neither of  those companies are members of the BPA nor the IPC and are not able to apply to the DVLA for motorists data. Nor are they obliged to observe the rules of PoFA.

Which is why their signs do not comply with the BPA code of Conduct.

In 4.2  it is best to quote the actual clause from PoFA  as not all Judges are au fait with PoFa. In this case the parking period is Schedule 4 Section 9[2]a]  

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

However as you have outed yourself as the driver it is probably not worth mentioning any of it.

your 4.4 point should follow or be included in point 4.1 to make sense.

you should also ask for the whole case to be struck out because of the extra charge.

[lookinforinfo]

Any sign of their WS yet Storyboard?

[StoryBoard]

I have not received their WS. Assume this would be issued through the post as they haven't/ shouldn't have any other means of contacting me. 

The court papers say the judge needs to receive the information 3 days before the hearing but the target date this month is 14 days before. I'll ask later how and when I send mine to both the court and the claimant. 

[FTMDave]

Thanks for your understanding.

Given my stupidity paras 4.2 & 4.3 are unnecessary and should be cut out.

In fact the WS sounds better if 4.1 runs into 4.4 as both deal with the carp unspecified terms on the PCN.

The rest is fine - well done!

[StoryBoard]

Posts #179 lookinforinfo & #182 FTMDave

Thanks. I've...

1. Added the comments in 2.8 suggested and named the two companies on the signage also.
2. I've kept the comment 'Nor are they obliged to observe the rules of PoFA'  in 2.8 but haven't included 'Which is why their signs do not comply with the BPA code of Conduct.' Wasn't sure if both, one or neither of these comments should have been included.
3. Omitted paragraphs 4.2 and 4.3.
4. 6.6 (double recovery) already asks for the case to be struck out, so haven't repeated this. Assume this was the section you were referring to?

CAG, is there anything else needed to add to the WS? I am keen to amend the details identified in Red to make the final version

Witness statement 17_03_24.pdf

 

Could I have a bit of advice on WS submission please.

As the Notice of Allocation letter advises that

6) Each party must deliver to the other party and to the court offices copies of all documents on which that party intends to rely at the hearing no later than fourteen days before the hearing.

And under the Face to Face hearing section:

You will need to send the judge an electronic bundle 3 days before the hearing via the court office.

Questions:

1. 14 days before is this Thursday 21st March. Do I send a hard copy of my WS via post to both the Claimant (proof of postage suitable?) and the Court. If so, I expect I need to post this on Tuesday 19th to get there in time? Is that correct? {Even though the court letter states check if you can issue your claim online, I've looked at MCOL website and it doesn't appear I can issue documents for the claim number online}.
2. Is the electronic bundle mentioned, my Defendants WS issued again to the Court Manager quoting the claim number?
3. I still have not received the Claimants WS.
4. I assume I do not need to send anything else, other than the WS.

Many thanks.

 

Just thought.

A hard copy will not have the hyperlinks that an electronic copy allows which I would have thought could assist the Judge/Court in their ease of review.

I could still send a simple hard copy to the Claimant.

[FTMDave]

1.  We normally say to e-mail the court and to send the PPC theirs by 2nd class post, which is all they're worth. 

When you e-mail the court make sure you put the claim number, the names of the parties, and "Witness Statement" in the subject field and click on return receipt.  For the leeches' copy get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

2.  Not sure.  These are strange, atypical directions.  Can you please upload the court order.

3.  Good.  You can add a paragraph to yours that you are respecting the court deadlines, while the Claimant is not, and you respectfully ask the court to disallow any late WS from them.

4.  Spot on.

Let me scoff a late-night sarnie and then I'll read through your WS.

[StoryBoard]

Court order is in post #134.

I cant seem to open it now though. If you need me to upload again let me know.

[FTMDave]

Your WS is superb.  Well done.

I'm afraid hyperlinks are no use in a WS.  You need to remove them and include the actual quoted reference (which you have done, e.g. 2.6, 2.7, Appendix D).

I've looked at the court order.  I haven''t a clue what this bundle is.  If in doubt send your WS a second time.

[StoryBoard]

Many thanks FTM. Just wanting to get it right.

I'll await any final comments from other CAGers tomorrow (Monday) and look to issue/post the WS on Tuesday 19th March. 

[dx100uk]

36 minutes ago, FTMDave said:

1.  We normally say to e-mail the court and to send the PPC theirs by 2nd class post, which is all they're worth. 

When you e-mail the court make sure you put the claim number, the names of the parties, and "Witness Statement" in the subject field and click on return receipt.  For the leeches' copy get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

you MUST ensure you use the RIGHT court email address, there are TWO systems now running.

old paper claimform CCBC (MCOL) claims issued before aug 2023.

New online CNBC system Moneyclaims

The new Civil National Business Centre replaces CCBC or CCMCC - Court Procedure and General Guidance (mainly England and Wales) - Consumer Action Group

Quote

2.  Not sure.  These are strange, atypical directions

i suspect the OP is reading the new system rules. its 14 days in his case.

dx

 

[StoryBoard]

Hi.

The claim was issued against me on 19/10/2022. 

I therefore assume the email address I use to submit my WS would be:

[email protected]

and anything that requires posting would be to the Court Office address at Dartford County Court for the attention of the Court Manager (as noted on the N157 footnote).

Is the email address for submission correct?

[AndyOrch]

No...you must file at Dartford County Court and serve copies to the claimant.

[Nicky Boy]

May be too late with this suggestion but, just spotted something in BPA's COP

SECTION 4. CONDITIONS

4.3 Under the Code you must keep to all the requirements laid down by law. The Code reflects our understanding of the law at the date of publication. However, you are responsible for familiarising yourself with the law on any activities covered by the Code.

I was thinking this may be useful in OP's WS section 5 Illegal signage?

[FTMDave]

Dartford County Court will have its own e-mail address.

It should be on the court order that fixed the hearing.

[FTMDave]

Dartford County Court and Family Court - Find a Court or Tribunal - GOV.UK

WWW.FIND-COURT-TRIBUNAL.SERVICE.GOV.UK

---

Dartford County Court and Family Court - Find contact details, opening times, how to get to here, types of cases managed, disabled access to the building

 

[StoryBoard]

I've read through it several times and the court order does not stipulate an email address for the court. From the link for civil cases I'm assuming it will be [email protected]

All of you. Many thanks for the direction. I'll get the WS issued tomorrow to the Court via email and the Claimant via post.

[FTMDave]

I would call Dartford Court just to be sure.

[StoryBoard]

I've just been re-checking a few things before issue.

I noticed that the claim on the MCOL website is £275.20 made up as shown below.

The wording in the WS refers to £170.00.

It allegedly increased from £170.00 from Final reminder before legal action to £275.20 when the claim form was issued on 19th October 2022.

I also do not see the £170.00 mentioned in this last breakdown (unless a portion of interest has been added)? Do I need to amend my statement or leave as is?

Amount Claimed

£190.20

Court Fee

£35.00

Solicitor Costs

£50.00

 

 

Total Amount

£275.20

 

57 minutes ago, FTMDave said:

I would call Dartford Court just to be sure.

The only bugbear is that the telephone number quoted is the national enquiries when you are generally on hold for an average of 30 to 40 minutes.

[FTMDave]

Two different legal sites come up with this number: 01322 627600

[FTMDave]

I would guess the claim is -

£170 + £20.20 interest = £190.20

£35 court fee

£50 legal representative's fees

£275.20 total.

So legit and you don't need to alter your WS.

If things go wrong with the Dartford e-mail address tomorrow you can always send by snail-mail.

Make sure you put a paragraph in your WS that you are respecting the court's deadline for WS service but you are yet to receive one from the Claimant.

 

[StoryBoard]

Thanks for the reassurance on fees. I have included the WS respecting paragraph in the last version, thanks.

And yes, still no Claimants WS received.

[lookinforinfo]

None of the signs comply with the BPA Code of Conduct as ABC are not members of the BPA.

[StoryBoard]

Evening All

Just to confirm I posted my WS yesterday (19th March) to the Court and the Claimant. Got proof of posting for both. Also emailed Dartford Court the WS after confirming the correct email address.

I received CEL's witness statement tonight on my return home.

Envelope stamped as signed for (it wasn't) by Royal Mail and cost them £3.61 to deliver .

Apologies but I'm not available to scan the full document in until Tuesday next week but is on nice gsm paper and 36 pages long. Without wanting to entice anyone greatly I'll briefly give comment here:

1. Cover letter again stating if not resolved in the next 7 days (at a value higher than the last letter at £135) they will seek to recover further costs for prep., attendance and travel.

2. Witness statement is from Scott Wilson, Barrister at CEL. 

3. Claimant is a company which provides car park management and enforcement notices to owners of Private Car Parks (PCPs) under written agreement.

4. Claimant states they are a member of BPA and abides with the BPA code of practice for members. I take it from this that ABC may not be a BPA member but CEL are?

5. Placement and content of notices were prominent. Refers to Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106.

6. Liability to pay parking charges and case Parking Eye Limited v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67.

7. The driver forms the parking contract with the Claimant, rather than the owner or managing agent of the PCP.

8. Confirmation of Authority to manage the car park attached as Exhibit SW1. I have uploaded this page. I'll let you draw conclusions on this evidence. They never issued this to myself.

9. Provided photographs taken on 22nd April 2019 and confirm that these were all in place on the date in question and remain in place to date. Exhibit SW3 shows the company name on the parking sign photos as 'ABC Car Park Solutions Limited' and also 'ABC Parking Solutions Limited' (which are not 'ABC Facilities Management Limited' from my photos taken 1 month after incident, not 2 years before - they didn't take a photo of the same sign). Neither of these company names could be found on a quick search of companies house.

10. They note the time of stay as 1 hour 48 minutes.

11. Claim cost broken down. £100 (parking charge), £70 (debt recovery and tracing fee and background litigation checks), £20.20 (accrued interest), Total £190.20.

12. Statement of Truth finishes on page 7. Signed and Dated 18th March 2023. The rest of the following pages are 9 exhibits.

13. Exhibit SW7 shows my appeal and comments. I hadn't realised that I'd given them my email, mobile number, correct address on this appeal at this time on 8th May 2021. It is also listed appeal as driver. Uploaded. I also uploaded my receipt as evidence. 

I don't see anything in particular in this WS that concerns me within, but will allow CAG to review this next week in case there are items that need to be drawn out or checked upon. Hopefully Tuesday 26th. Thanks all.

 

POPLA Appeal.pdf CEL Confirmation of Authority.pdf

[dx100uk]

25 minutes ago, StoryBoard said:

they will seek to recover further costs for prep., attendance and travel.

2. Witness statement is from Scott Wilson, Barrister at CEL. 

just to p'haps blowout the water the scary though they have a barrister and a barrister costs £100's per hrs and if you lose it will take the claim into the £1000's...tough luck..it's small claims court.  

won't say where as it's embarrassing for them, but a certain websites majority of experts some time ago recommended a defendant in a speculative invoice court claim were the PPC in a letter said they were sending a 'barrister' at a quoted cost of +£3000 to fold whilst the claim was still heading to a potential hearing,.... he didn't and did lose but the PPC only got £90 costs.

[Nicky Boy]

9 hours ago, dx100uk said:

won't say where as it's embarrassing for them

C'mon DX... embarrass them