Run a small construction co. - client won't pay final invoice. - help RE: Small claims please ***Resolved***

[Kwabena]

If the drains need adjusting at this stage then it will be quite costly...possibly £1,000 or more.  Luckily they are installed correctly

 

As for the other stuff  it's hard to say but maybe another £1,000

[BankFodder]

So you are saying that it is possible to identify the defects or the shortcomings that they are referring to and to put a value of £1,000 as being the cost of addressing them. Is this correct ?

 

 

And in that case it would be reasonably safe to say that £2,000 worth of the work is undisputed

 

[Kwabena]

I think that if everything they say is true it could be in the region of £2,000 so only £1,000 left undisputed.

 

It's very hard to put a value on these things as we are dealing with a problem that's in his imagination.  If there is an "unknown" problem there is also an unknown price to fix it.

Prices in this line of work are notoriously hard to pin down as well....so one person could value the work at £500 and another at £2,000.

 

But the claims they are making are spurious...I have an email from him asking me to leave  all materials onsite,  and then he wants to deduct money from me because I didn't return some of it

[BankFodder]

I suppose that you will eventually have to bring a court claim against these people but before you do that I think it would be a good idea understand the value of the various concerns that they have, to make a further effort to work with your customer either to resolve those issues or to reduce them – and if possible, even secure a part payment so that the value of your eventual claim will be reduced.

They seem to be concerned about the 10% that you have added to the materials.
Can you give us a total for that please.


They also seem to be concerned about the fact that you have spent some mornings doing school runs – but you say that you made up for that by working later and that in any event you had alerted them to this and they agreed.
In that case there seems to be nothing that can be said about that and on the face of it they are wrong to challenge you.

They seem to be concerned about some aspects of the workmanship – and in respect of this, I think we need to get a more detailed list – a snagging list – and at the very least make proposals about inspecting their concerns and then proposals to address them.

Part of this approach is based on reducing the problem as much as possible. But a more important part of this approach is about gaining the moral high ground and showing that you have bent over backwards to deal with your customers and that they have simply been stubborn and uncooperative and have forced you to litigation.

I understand from your earlier post that there are issues with drainage, kitchen lights, and some material left on site.

It would be helpful if you would list out in a bit more detail what is being complained about.
However, we don't need a load of narrative. We need something a bit more detailed as if you are carrying out your own inspection and preparing to quote for the job. This means that you identify precisely the problem and the proposed remedy.

[Kwabena]

So it sounds like a good first step would be to email and address their concerns and offer an olive branch of some kind?  Here's a (hopefully) concise summary of their concerns and my thoughts

 

Drains - They have "unknown" concerns about the current installation which is waiting for connection.  I could offer to leave £500 outstanding to allow for any adjustment that needs to be made

 

Hired equipment - They are saying that they will need to hire more equipment that we have previously had on site which will cost £500-£600 (I assume this means a digger and is massively exsesive..it would be more like £200).    I don't feel liable for this,  the reason the drains weren't done at the time we had a digger is because they are non standard and we needed more information and decisions made,  I have an email from them after the digger was finished with still trying to clarify which type of drain to use

 

Bookkeeping charge - This was agreed ahead of time and is only worth £160

 

Kitchen lights - These are the lights from the old kitchen extension which was demolished, which they asked me to set aside.  I did that but can't find them.  When I originally sent my invoice I had already removed the bookkeeping charge of £160 to cover this (the value of the lights is less than £100)

 

Steel to be returned - They are saying that some leftover steel needs to be returned to the supplier and credited to my account.  This can't happen as they paid by card themselves so any credit would need to go back to them.  I also have on email from them asking for ALL leftover materials to be left onsite on the day I finished up

Unopened materials left on site - They want me to pay for all unopened materials that were left onsite.  There are hardly any of these (I can't actually think what there is) and again,  I have on an email that they want ALL materials left onsite when we finish

 

£10 cash float - They we're giving us cash to pay for diesel for the digger and I was keeping change/receipts for them.  They say it is £10 short,  I have no idea but am happy to take their word for this

 

 

 

That's all their concerns....do you think offering to leave £500 with them if they pay the rest of the invoice would be a reasonable starting point?

[BankFodder]

I wouldn't start offering money at this stage.
I think I would want more specific information as to their concerns.

 

Quote

Dear XXX

I'm sorry you haven't responded to my letter of XXX date which I have attempted to address your concerns.

I still think the best thing to do is to have a dialogue in order to understand the issues and hopefully to agree a solution.

In terms of the workmanship I understand that you have an issue with the drains. However, you haven't identified in detail what the problem seems to be. If you be kind enough to do that then I'll get back to you immediately with my comments.
The best approach might be for me to meet you at the property by appointment and you can show me the problems that are worrying you.

I understand that you feel that there is a need to hire some more equipment – I am assuming that this is a digger. Once again, if we can meet on site then we can discuss this and I would suggest that if it is necessary to hire equipment that I am best place to do it because I will obtain a much better price through my trade account.

I understand also there is the problem of missing kitchen lights. These were removed but I agree that you asked me to retain them and unfortunately it seems that they have probably been disposed of when we were carted away rubble et cetera.
As you know, I already reduced my original invoice by £160 (the bookkeeping fee) to reflect the disappearance of the lights. If you think that this is not an adequate sum then please let me know what you have in mind.

You have also referred to the problem of certain material having been left on your site. You have asked that this material be returned to the supplier and that I would then receive a credit to my trade account.
I think I have already pointed out that I'm happy to return the material but any credit will be paid directly into your own account because these materials were paid for by you in the first place.

You have also referred to "unopened materials" which have been left on site. I'm afraid I'm not able to recall what they might be. Once again, I think a site visit would give us an opportunity to understand exactly what issues we are talking about and to make suitable arrangements.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours sincerely

 

Please have a look at the above draft. Make any additions, subtractions or modifications and then post the result up here for us to see.

The idea of this letter is not to talk about money but simply to show goodwill and to avoid contention.

Hopefully shows an openness and a willingness to resolve the situation and whether or not the letter has its effect, it will count you in good stead if you have to go into procedure

[Kwabena]

That's fantastic!  Thankyou so much for drafting that for me.  I'll send it over (with some minor modifications) and see what they say.  I'll let you know how it goes 

Thanks

[BankFodder]

We would like to see the completed draft first please

[Kwabena]

Ok will do...I'll try and do it later tonight

 

[BankFodder]

Don't take too long.

It's very important to be highly reactive and keep the other side on the back foot.

To take control, you need to dictate the pace – and it has to be fast

[Kwabena]

Agreed. So here is what I propose to send...  I have just changed the wording around the returned items to address the email he sent stating that we should leave them on site...what do you think? 

 

 

Quote

 

I'm sorry you haven't responded to my email of 1/3/2022 in which I have attempted to address your concerns.

I still think the best thing to do is to have a dialogue in order to understand the issues and hopefully to agree a solution.

In terms of the workmanship I understand that you have an issue with the drains. However, you haven't identified in detail what the problem seems to be. If you be kind enough to do that then I'll get back to you immediately with my comments.

The best approach might be for me to meet you at the property by appointment and you can show me the problems that are worrying you.

I understand that you feel that you need to hire some more equipment – I am assuming that this is a digger. Once again, if we can meet on site then we can discuss this and I would suggest that if it is necessary to hire equipment that I might be best placed to do it on your behalf because I will obtain a much better price through my trade account.

I understand also there is the problem of missing kitchen lights. These were removed but I agree that you asked me to retain them and unfortunately it seems that they have probably been disposed of when we were carting away rubble et cetera.

As you know, I already reduced my original invoice by £160 (the bookkeeping fee) to reflect the disappearance of the lights. If you think that this is not an adequate sum then please let me know what you have in mind.

You have also referred to the problem of certain materials having been left on your site. You have asked that this material be returned to the supplier and that I would then receive a credit to my trade account. Unfortunately you paid for these so they can't be credited to my account,  and also you did ask me to leave all materials on site on what turned out to be my last day so this is what I did.

You have also referred to "unopened materials" which have been left on site. I'm afraid I'm not able to recall what they might be. Once again, I think a site visit would give us an opportunity to understand exactly what issues we are talking about and to make suitable arrangements.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by BankFodder
Edits in red

[Kwabena]

One question I have...I don't feel liable for the hiring of a digger again for the drains.  It wasn't possible to do these drains when we had a digger on site before as we were still researching and waiting for decisions on the non standard external drainage works.  He was aware of this at the time and I have an email from him asking for more information after the digger was sent back.

Also,  I'm not sure if a digger is appropriate for the new works as there isn't room to use it properly.  If we we're doing it we would just dig it by hand.

Is it worth mentioning this or should I just go with what we have?

[BankFodder]

I've edited the draft in red to reflect your concerns which I think are entirely reasonable.

 

If you're happy then get this message to them tomorrow. Update as if you get any responses but if you don't hear anything by next weekend then let us know because I think it will be time to send a letter of claim.

A letter of claim means that you are giving them 14 day deadline or else you will sue them. This is not a bluff and if you set down this timescale then you must stick by it

[Kwabena]

That's great,  thankyou.  Have sent it and will keep you posted

[Kwabena]

Got a reply!

 

 

**** 

 

I’ll respond to the emails once the drains are connected.

 

Regards 

 

****

[BankFodder]

Could you please explain a few simple words what the issue is about the drains

 

Also, whose idea was it to structure the contract on the basis of the amount of work carried out each week rather than a single price for the whole job? And could you just give us a bit more detail about why it was designed that way

[BankFodder]

????

[Kwabena]

We all knew that this would be a bit of a tricky job with quite a few unknowns so I offered to do it on this basis at the same time as sending the quote,  they we're given both options with no pressure to choose either one over the other.

 

The idea is that we all work together, they take some pressure off me by ordering materials etc,  and they only pay for the labour that is needed.  I've done about 4 other jobs on this basis and on all of them we have walked away with happy customers and we are even going back to do more work for one of them later this year 

[BankFodder]

Thank you. So you have in writing that there was a choice and that they chose the weekly work option?

You haven't addressed the question about the drains.

It will be helpful if you would attend to all the questions and also maybe engage with the thread a little bit more quickly.

[Kwabena]

I'm busy working and parenting so can't always reply straight away..I reply as quickly as I can! 

Apologies,  I missed the drain question.  The existing drain that is to be connected into is higher than the new drainage that comes out of the extension, so that means that the waste needs to be pumped up hill for about 12m.  They needed to get information from building control and source a pumped drainage system to be installed to accomplish this.

 

There is nothing that could be done about these levels,  it is just that their existing drain is very high.

 

 

...and I have emails from me offering them both options and them accepting to go with the daywork option

Edited March 7, 2022 by Kwabena

[BankFodder]

I should point out that the volunteers on this forum also have work and parenting commitments.

Does your explanation relating to the drain mean that they weren't expecting the work to be completed during that week?
As you were effectively charging them on a daily basis, I gather that nobody could say that this is a job that you have been trying to charge for but which wasn't carried out – correct?

If that is the case then why would they say that the drains have to be connected first before they are prepared to respond to you?

[Kwabena]

Yes,  I was employed on a daily basis up until the point they told me to stop coming in.  It was never the plan that I would finish the job to completion.  We new from day one that the drains may be an issue (although no-one knew or could have known that it would need a pumped system).

 

I offered to finish the drains but they got others in to do it which is fair enough as that fits in with what was agreed at the start. 

 

I installed the drains from the kitchen and bathroom internally and bought them out of the building to be connected at a later date which was the only thing I could do until we knew what was happening externally and is perfectly acceptable

I have no idea why they can't respond until drains are connected.  I can only guess that it is because they want to test them before deciding how much money they want to remove from my final invoice

[BankFodder]

But if they tested them and found that there was some problem, in what way might that have been caused by you – something you did or something that you shouldn't have done but which you did?

[Kwabena]

The only way I can think that there could be an issue is if it doesn't run downhill from the w/c towards the outside,  but this doesn't need the whole drain system fitted to check it.

 

I guess and at this stage where they are suspicious of everything I have done then I guess I can't blame them for wanting to check it,  I just don't see any issues with it.

 

A friend was working there at the wknd and apparently the drain was being fitted then and may be finished early this week

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

If there was any issue with the train for which you would be responsible, what would be the likely cost ?

 

 

Is your friend continuing to work there and will that person be able to continue feeding you information?

Also, maybe some useful photographs?