Run a small construction co. - client won't pay final invoice. - help RE: Small claims please ***Resolved***

[Kwabena]

I emailed building control on Monday with this message...

 

 

 

Hi ****,

 

Would you be able to confirm which stages of the works at ** ******** are signed off by building control please?

 

Kind regards

 

and got this in reply....

 

Hi ****,

 

I have inspected up to and including the roof. Below details the stages I have visited so far:

 

• Excavations/Foundations
• Internal drains – Pipes laid internally and capped outside, I understand pumped drainage it to be installed externally and connecting to foul drains at a later date
• Oversite
• Roof – including flat roof section and pitched section towards rear with steel ridge beam
• Steel creating opening into the existing

 

I can see that my colleague **** **** visited on 04.03.22 and his notes state the pump chamber was being installed at the time of inspection.

 

Many thanks

Edited April 5, 2022 by Kwabena
delete personal details

[Kwabena]

I have drafted an email to the client but am not great at putting things into words...what do you think?

 

Dear ****

 

It seems to be the  drain that is the sticking point for you making payment to me.  I have asked numerous times for more information but all I have had back in reply is that you are waiting for them to be commissioned.

I don't see how this is relevant to me as I only installed the initial drainage run which terminates just outside the building.  This has been signed off by building control so I don't understand the delay in payment.

 

Would you be able to settle the invoice unless there is something you haven't mentioned yet that you would like to discuss?

[BankFodder]

I'm not sure what you think you are going to achieve by this letter.

You are dealing with a client that is giving you the runaround. You have ample evidence of this. You now have ample evidence that you have bent over backwards to try and accommodate them and they are simply stalling you by not giving you any information at all.

It now seems that you have got evidence from a professional that the drains are correctly installed – and yet you still want to give your client an opportunity to protract the discussion.

You can send the letter by all means – but what are you going to do if you get the usual rubbish.

It's up to you of course but don't you think that you are now at the point where you should issue a firm threat of legal proceedings and 14 days – and then follow through with that threat.

[Kwabena]

Yes I agree...I thought in your last post you advised to write another email first.  So I'm happy to go ahead with the letter of intent, I've been reading about them on this website and it seems I should post it with proof of postage is that correct?

 

[BankFodder]

Yes, you are right. That is what I suggested. I had forgotten .

However, thinking about it again. It seems to me that maybe you should simply cut to the chase .

 

 

 

[Kwabena]

ok,  sounds good.  I'll write up a letter and post it here for your thoughts,  thanks

 

[Kwabena]

Hi,  

After going through your protocol of debt claim I've written up a  of a letter of claim.  Open to any advice or changes that may be given

 

 

Dear ****

 

I'm writing to you in regard to the debt of £3069.75 which has been outstanding since Feb 13, 2022 which is for labour and materials for work we carried out at **** **** **** as instructed by yourself.

 

As I understand it, the reason you are not paying is because you want the drains to be "commissioned" first. I only installed the initial drainage run from the bathroom to just outside the new extension  and my part of the drain has been inspected and passed by building control. As all external drainage works are nothing to do with me, I don't see how the additional drainage works can be used to justify not paying me for two months.

 

As always,  I am open to dialogue and would prefer this to be resolved amicably, but, due to the lack of communication from yourself I feel I am left with little choice in this matter.

 

I have enclosed a copy of the invoice for your reference.

Kind regards

****

 

 

[BankFodder]

Please monitor this thread for a reply later or probably tomorrow .

However, this is another open-ended letter.

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

@Kwabena   -   Can you clarify, does the response you got from building control which you quote in #100 actually confirm what you asked?  ie what stages had been inspected and which had been signed off.

 

It's just that to me the reply reads that certain stages have been inspected by the person making the reply, and that "the pump chamber was being installed at the time" of a colleagues inspection, but nowhere does it expressly say that all the work inspected had been completed to a satisfactory standard or signed off

 

It's just that if I'd asked the question you had asked, I'm not certain that I would consider that reply to be an answer.  Is it the usual practice when asked what has been "signed off" just to get a reply saying what has been inspected?

 

(It's possible I'm reading too much - or too little - into their response, but being told that something has been inspected doesn't necessarily convey to me that it has been "signed off".  I presume that work could be inspected and not signed off?)

 

Just to explain further - I spent 25+ years as a manager in the NHS and I'm aware that most public sector employees are easily capable of NOT saying a lot of things while simultaneously giving a very convincing appearance that they have said them.

 

You don't want to end up somewhere down the line saying you know the work has been signed off but the building inspector then saying:  "Errr... I didn't actually tell you that the work had been signed off... "

[Kwabena]

Hi @Manxman in exile,

 

Thanks for your input and yes I understand what you are saying.  I guess signed off in this context is bit of a vague principle... building control visit at various stages in the construction process to check certain things to do with structural integrity, thermal performance and drainage,  are installed to acceptable standards. Once the job is completed they come round for a final inspection and all being well the client will get a completion certificate. 

 

There is no certificate to show each stage is signed off but each visit will be part of the whole marking process so to speak.  I don't think it would hurt to go back to them and try and get them to write it in such a way that specifies each stage (including the drains) is completed to an acceptable standard

 

 

 

 

[Kwabena]

Ok so after reading through what I wrote I  realised I hadn't even mention court proceedings!! I think it was so front and centre in my mind that I must have assumed it was in there.  I've added a small paragraph which has addressed it.  Hopefully this is a bit better

 

 

 

 

Dear ****

 

I'm writing to you in regard to the debt of £3069.75 which has been outstanding since Feb 13, 2022 which is for labour and materials for work we carried out at **** **** **** as instructed by yourself.

 

As I understand it, the reason you are not paying is because you want the drains to be "commissioned" first. I only installed the initial drainage run from the bathroom to just outside the new extension  and my part of the drain has been inspected and passed by building control. As all external drainage works are nothing to do with me, I don't see how the additional drainage works can be used to justify not paying me for two months.

 

If I don't receive payment in full in the next fourteen days then I will start court proceedings against you to claim the money back.

 

As always,  I am open to dialogue and would prefer this to be resolved amicably, but, due to the lack of communication from yourself I feel I am left with little choice in this matter.

 

I have enclosed a copy of the invoice for your reference.

Kind regards

***

 

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

If you are sure you're up for court proceedings then head the letter LETTER BEFORE CLAIM.  Then it's a proper formal notification under PAPLOC that you intend to issue a claim.

 

You need to be prepared for court though, there's nothing worse than threatening court proceedings but then in reality doing nothing.

[Kwabena]

By prepared for court proceedings do you mean having all my paperwork ready to go, relevent email chains organised and form ready to be sent off? Is there anything else I should be aware of?

 

Do I need to post this letter of claim or is it ok to send in an email like all of our other communications?

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Kwabena
irrelevent information

[FTMDave]

Sorry, I didn't explain very well.  We sometimes have people here who threaten court but have no intention of going ahead with the threat.  When that happens they are shown up as paper tigers and all the power switches to the other side.

 

I meant that after you send your Letter of Claim you register with the MCOL website and prepare a draft Particulars of Claim (these are very short and we will help you).  If the other side doesn't cough up then on day 15 you start your claim.

 

You don't have to brilliantly prepare every piece of evidence for day 15, no, just have the PoCs ready.

 

Sure you can send the LBC by e-mail.

 

[Kwabena]

Ok, thanks for the clarification...Sounds good.  I'll look to send it tomorrow hopefully

[Kwabena]

Just a quick update...I sent this email on Friday with the title "Letter of claim"

 

it's pretty much as above but I added the line about removing £10 from the bill for a discrepancy in money that he was giving us to pay for diesel for a digger.

 

Dear ****,

 

I'm writing to you in regard to the debt of £3069.75 which has been outstanding since Feb 13, 2022 which is for labour and materials for work we carried out at ** **** **** as instructed by yourself.

 

As I understand it, the reason you are not paying is because you want the drains to be "commissioned" first. I only installed the initial drainage run from the bathroom to just outside the new extension  and my part of the drain has been inspected and passed by building control. As all external drainage works are nothing to do with me, I don't see how the additional drainage works can be used to justify not paying me for two months.

 

If I don't receive payment in full in the next fourteen days then I will start court proceedings against you to claim the money back.

 

I have adjusted the invoice to reflect the £10 owed for money provided for red diesel

 

As always,  I am open to dialogue and would prefer this to be resolved amicably, but, due to the lack of communication from yourself I feel I am left with little choice in this matter.

 

I have enclosed a copy of the invoice for your reference.

Kind regards

****

 

 

 

 

No surprise that he hasn't replied (yet).  I'll register with MCOL and draft up and start working on a particulars of claim when I get a chance. Does the particulars of claim need to address every single thing he has mentioned or just the reasons why the money is owed?

 

Is there anything else I need to do/know?

Thanks

[BankFodder]

You don't particularly need to mention the full exchange between you. You really just need to identify the breach of contract .

Post a draft here before you click it off

 

[Kwabena]

I have a reply!

 

To help the decision to be made on the response of legal action, please confirm the following:

 

• A copy of the communication you made about the 10% charge for the materials used.  
• Please send through the invoices for the materials used.  
• Confirmation of the reason for suggesting that a drainage pump was needed rather than a change to the drainage at the side of the existing property.  
• Confirmation of what you consider to be your responsibility for in case of any future issues with the property.  Please confirm if you have a company or if this is your personal liability.  

 

Regards 

****

 

 

 

Just to go through these points

-  I have an email from me at the start of the job with our payment terms, charges etc that mentions the 10% materials charge

-  I have copies of all invoices

-  The drainage pump was needed and suggested by building control as the new drain came out at a lower level than the existing drain we were connecting onto

-  I'm not sure what I consider to be my liability to be honest.  Up to this point I have never been asked this question...I would always come back to address any concerns with any of the work I have done.  In this case I would suggest that any work I have been paid directly for would be my responsibility as he has paid all other subbies directly.

-  I am a sole trader not a ltd company

[BankFodder]

Clearly they are just trying to confuse the issue.

I suggest that you send them the communication they are asking for, the invoices – and tell them that in respect of the rest, you consider yourself to be bound by the requirements of the consumer rights act 2015.

Tell them that you have satisfied their request for information. Any other questions will be dealt with during the court process if they are deemed relevant by the court.

Tell them that the clock is still clicking on your letter of claim and that you will be issuing proceedings on XXX date as promised.

[Kwabena]

Thanks for the quick response...I'm off to work now but will post my response up here later

[Kwabena]

Here is the response I have drafted to them...happy to receive any thoughts

 

 

Hi ****,

 

I'll attach a copy and paste of the email I sent you prior to the job starting which had my terms in it including the 10% bookkeepers fee, it is dated 14 Oct 2021.

 

I'll also attach all invoices, this may need to be done over a couple of emails. You may notice that the cost of materials I have paid for this job is higher than what I am charging you...a couple of invoices came in late so I had decided to swallow the cost of them rather than come back to you with some extra costs after putting in what was supposed to be my final invoice.

 

The pumped drain was requested by building control as the invert level was lower coming out of the extension than the existing drain we needed to connect to,  we did discuss this at the time.

 

As for my responsibilities,  I consider myself to be bound by the requirements of the consumer rights act 2015

 

I hope this satisfies your requests for information,  and I hope to receive payment in full before the 29th April after which day I shall be issuing the county court claim as stated in my recent letter of claim.

 

Thanks

****

 

And here is the copy and paste I was going to include.  It is from an email I sent him before commencing work setting out our costs and terms etc

 

 

 

Morning ****,

 

I thought I had already sent you our terms etc so apologies for leaving it until the last minute. I'll just go through the way we generally work and the costs associated with it

 

Our dayrate rates are

 

Me - £200

**** - £130

**** - £110

 

All of these need 20% vat added to them.  **** and **** are with me full time and are the only people i will directly charge you for.  *** is £200 per day but not vat registered,  I generally get him to do all the carpentry, kitchen/bathroom fit outs etc plus he can do plumbing end electrics so I would normally get him in at the start of the job to make everything safe before demolition

 

I'm happy to use my accounts if needed to pick up stuff as we go as well.  I'll supply these items at cost plus 10% and will happily show you statements/invoices for anything I supply if requested so it's all transparent.  The reason for the 10% is that every invoice I get has to be sorted out by me and then manually inputted into the accounts software by my book keeper which I get charged for.  This isn't a money making thing,  it covers genuine costs associated with bookkeeping which is why I encouraged you to set up your own account at Ridgeons

 

There is a tools cost associated with all building work as all tools need to be purchased, maintained and (the bigger ones) repaired and serviced.  To help cover this cost I generally hire the bigger tools to the job,  things like the big breaker, laser level, petrol saw, compactor, mixer etc.  A way of looking at this is that say I didn't have a compactor, most people would be ok with me hiring one out and passing the cost onto them. Once I spend £700 on it and pay for it's maintenance and eventual replacement etc, that cost still has to be recuperated through the business.  As a rule I generally get a 15% discount at the local hire shop so I use their list price as a guide and say I will "hire" the bigger items to the job at 25% less than their list price.  I'm reasonably flexible on this so say we only use the breaker for half an hour I wouldn't really worry about charging you for it, and also if a machine is sat on site for a couple of weeks not being used I wouldn't charge either.  It's just a way of covering the ongoing costs for purchasing, repairing, calibrating (laser) and replacing tools.

 

 

As for ongoing running of the job,  communication etc I'm happy to do as much as you want me to.  I can put you in touch with whatever trades you want but your welcome to get your own quotes as well.  

 

I have to do the school run a couple of times...it's in a two weekly cycle and goes

 

M

T

W - Morning drop off

T

F

M - Afternoon pickup

T - Morning drop off

W - Morning drop off

T

F

 

I generally still charge for these days as I will be working in the mornings before and evenings after work as well running the job, organising and communicating with various people so hopefully this all balances out

 

 

I hope that's all ok for you,  happy to discuss all of this and go through anything with you.  There's a possibility we will be popping in to next doors later today although I'm waiting for **** to confirm with me.  I'll let you know if we do and can come round to yours as well if you would like.

It would be good to get the building control application in soon.  They generally need to be in a week ahead of work commencing.  There is a possiblity that we will be able to start before the end of October so having that as an option would be good

Many thanks

****

Edited April 20, 2022 by BankFodder
Edit in bold type

[BankFodder]

I have proposed an edit which is in bold in your draft letter.

 

You must make it clear that you are not letting go of your deadline and of course when the deadline expires, you must be as good as your word. Otherwise you lose all credibility

[Kwabena]

I got another reply...it seems we have their attention now!  Here it is

 

****

 

For the pumped drain are you saying that this was the only option Building Control would accept or the only option using the existing drains that serviced the drain in the existing house?

 

For the responsibilities it was which elements of the extension do you consider yourself responsible.  Please clarify.  The majority of the work was sub-contracted.  

 

When you discussed the pumped drain did you discuss the installation cost of this technical item?  

 

It would be helpful if you confirmed what your knowledge of drainage systems is.  You did not include the installation of drainage on your plan and you did not provide a quote.  You advertise yourself as “**** Construction” but you are not a company and appear not to do install groundworks.  Please confirm the extent of your experience in the last 4 years when your trading name was used.  

 

Please confirm if all the invoices have been sent.  Your last email mentioned several. 

 

Please confirm if the materials left on site were from your accounts or our  account.  It looks like they were from your accounts and please confirm if you intend to collect them.

 

Also it would be helpful to understand why materials (on the invoices provided) were purchased from your account rather than the account you advised me to set up.   Most of them look like standard items that supply.

 

Regards

 

 

 

Just to respond on here to a few of the points raised

 

- It was the option building control advised

- I'm not sure what he means by "did I discuss installation of the drain",  I'm not sure who he means as the person I was discussing with

- My knowledge/experience of drainage systems is that we install all our own drainage whenever we are required to when we build an extension etc.  I have no experience of pumped systems and I mentioned that to him on an email prior to ordering this drain and was quite clear that I was taking advie from suppliers and reps to help him choose the pump he needed

-  I don't know if materials are from my account or his...I don't intend to collect them as he asked in an email for all remaining materials to be left on site on our last day

-  To clarify about the last question...at the start of the job I suggested they set up an account at the local merchant so we could go and book out materials etc for the job.  I have accounts at a lot of different merchants though so sometimes would use these if materials were out of stock, wet, not in good condition or ore expensive at his merchants.  He knew this and was generally offered the chance to pay my suppliers direct to save on my 10% mark up.

 

 

I have a feeling that this pumped drain is the big sticking point.  When it became clear we would need a pumped system I made it clear to him that I have no previous experience fitting these although I felt that it was something we could do if needed (it was fitted by others in the end)  I was helping him choose one and speaking to suppliers and reps about  which one was most suitable..in the end he made the decision.  

 

I think this system is a lot bigger/more expensive than was necessary for their needs and I would imagine he will try and say that I advised him wrongly/don't have relevant experience etc but I was completely clear that I hadn't done this before.

 

I'll copy and paste a couple of sections of emails between the client, supplier and myself below which are all dated prior to ordering

 

From me to client.....

 

"Just getting back to you about the pumped inspection chamber.  It all looks good to me but I should clarify that I don't have any first hand knowledge of these.  This model was advised to me by the Marsh rep during a telephone conversation.  

I'll double check the invert level (depth) of the pipe coming out if the extension today and it may be worth going back to them to double check everything is good (either through [edited - HB] or direct with the rep) one more time before putting the order in"

 

Reply from client to me.....

 

"I’ve had experience of the product/supplier and have checked with a couple of people - so happy with this and the price.  There are cheaper products, but they are less reliable. 

 

There are a couple of things I will need to check - the guarantee that the manufacturer provides and the specifics on the alarm."

 

From client to supplier (with me copied in)....

 

"Thanks for your help earlier this week.  

 

For the twin pump station, just a couple of things I’ll need information on:

 

• The guarantee offered by the manufacturer.
• Any information on the alarm system.  

 

Once confirmed well be able to order and I can call to make payment. " 

 

 

From client to both of us...

 

"Thanks **** - that concludes the information I needed.

*** - once you are able to confirm from your side (re the fitting) I can speak to **** and order the device.

Regards"

 

From me to both

 

"Hi both,

 

Yes all good my side to fit as far as I can tell.  As discussed I've not installed one begotten [typo in original email...I meant before] but it looks fairly straight forward as long as **** is available to do the wiring in"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Well I would tend to respond to him that you are happy to answer his questions and to maintain a dialogue which will help to solve the problem.
However, you have been attempting to have this dialogue for some considerable time now and and so far he has not joined in any particular exchange.
I should then give him the answers that you have suggested above in a clear tabulated point by point list – making it clear that everything has been done on advice and in consultation with him.
You notice that he is asking lots of questions but has not raised any objections to anything and he should understand that although you are very keen to clear up any remaining points with him, this could have been done a lot earlier and you will not now be moved from the deadline which you set out in your letter of claim.

You could say to him that if it helps, he should identify those aspects of the work with which he is completely satisfied and settle the bill in respect of those in order to mitigate his situation and to reduce any dispute to a minimum.
You suggest to him at that point that he should then bring in his own independent expert for an assessment of the situation. He will need to do that anyway and at his own expense if he wants to defend the matter in court.

If he is prepared to do that then you are prepared to extend your deadline by a further 14 days to resolve any outstanding concerns, but as things stand, you will be issuing your claim on XXX date and that point he will become liable not only for the amount of the outstanding invoice but also for the court fees which have necessarily been incurred.

Tell him that all of this correspondence will be brought to the attention of the court.

 

I should hold off suggesting that the system might have been larger than he needed. There is probably no need to refer to this – let him bring it up but importantly, he was fully informed

[Kwabena]

Ok that all sounds good to me...I'll try and get something written up in a bit and post up here for thoughts