The sub-postmasters scandal

[cjcregg]

....It's an issue that was raised by Dan Neidle at one point because the roughly 540 who got the civil settlement gave the convicted ones that didn't get anything, a share of it out of their own pockets.  Then in their wisdom, the compensation administrators deducted that amount from the convicted's official compensation. But I believe that ridiculous decision was subsequently reversed.

[honeybee13]

It just sounds worse and worse.

I haven't watched hearings before, Stephen Bradshaw is sounding like a broken record giving as little information as possible.

John Hyde, deputy ed of the Law Gazette tweeted this earlier.

'Seen a lot of tweets from people saying Post Office investigator Stephen Bradshaw is coming across as incompetent and/or blindly defending the PO. For those of us who have covered the inquiry before, let me tell you this is nothing new.'

He also thinks the PO have stitched up Bradshaw and that today is a PR disaster.

'Worth repeating that if the Post Office had not failed to disclose documents last year, Stephen Bradshaw would have given evidence in November without any of this scrutiny and publicity. Today's PR disaster is entirely the Post Office's making.'

[tobyjugg2]

@cjcregg's points made me think

 

There are Postmasters who were falsely convicted, but there were also Postmasters who weren't convicted as they buckled to the PO pressure/extortion to pay the sums to avoid conviction were there not?

[cjcregg]

Yes absolutely. There are three categories, each of which has there own compensation scheme.

Those who were convicted, those who weren't convicted but were fired and lost their businesses, livelihoods etc, and those who experienced Horizon generated shortages and made good the 'losses' and stayed in post.

[tobyjugg2]

Post Office investigators were given bonuses for every Horizon conviction

WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

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Evidence of ‘horrendous’ culture in pursuing staff emerges as public inquiry resumes

 

"Post Office used threats of theft charges as 'nasty crowbar' to get people to plead guilty to false accounting, KC claims at inquiry"

 

Edited January 11 by tobyjugg2

[theoldrouge]

Meanwhile anyone seen ED?
 

Ed Davey faces questions over his links to the lawyers who defended the Post Office against legal action over the Horizon scandal

WWW.DAILYMAIL.CO.UK

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The Liberal Democrat leader has come under fire over what he knew about the IT system that led to the largest miscarriage...

 

[honeybee13]

They're desperate to deflect attention from the Tories, aren't they?

[tobyjugg2]

What @theoldrouge about EVERY PM/minister in the government in the last 4 years (let alone since 2015) when the issues were largely defined in court, and there were no longer ANY (let alone valid) excuses left NOT to act?

Clearly, along with the PO - they should be the first port of call, far far ahead of any others facetious suggested by those who should quite clearly be shouldering the blame and are desperate to point blame elsewhere?

Sunak, Anderson, Patel, Braverman Gove ..... line them up

 

 

[honeybee13]

I was thinking about some of the questions put to Bradshaw at the inquiry today. Numerous victims have said he told them they were the only one having problems and that he harassed them with multiple phone calls.

He says the interviews were conducted under PACE rules so why aren't there detailed notes [that could be selectively edited I suppose] or recordings?

I wonder if that's part of the evidence that POL withheld.

[determindator]

In the drama I saw a pile of docs heavily redacted I wonder if that info will be revealed in the inquiry. There was a situation told of an Inspector coming into the premises sitting at the end of the bed of a PO Manager how shocking what power allows that. For the PO to say from the beginning to individual PO's they were the only one and there were no other reports of a loss problem. That is fundamental to know what was being ignored or covered up from the start all those years ago and not true to say that. Workers at Horizon with access in real time being capable to alter PO's accounts. Is Fujitsu joining the enquiry?

 

[cjcregg]

Yes, their prosecution support personnel are giving evidence next week.

I must say, just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, the BBC report about PO's conduct around the 2015 Panorama investigation is pretty bad. It's not often that BBC accuse anyone of being outright liars. 

[honeybee13]

Is there a link please, CJ? I haven't seen that.

[honeybee13]

Is this it?

Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower

WWW.BBC.COM

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The company smeared postmasters in a failed bid to suppress evidence of their innocence, the BBC can reveal.

 

[honeybee13]

Why’s it been so hard for postmasters to receive justice from the Post Office? One theory: senior Post Office staff secretly believe the postmasters are guilty. That theory is now confirmed:

This is from Nick Wallis on TalkTV.

EXCLUSIVE: Secret recordings reveal current Director of Comms at the Post Office Richard Taylor insinuating sub-postmasters caught up in the scandal "are criminals". "Some of them downright stole it." "At the moment the narrative is they are all innocent."

 

[cjcregg]

BTW Wyn Williams confirmed that the inquiry will be hearing evidence about the government's response to the scandal, so I expect various ministers to appear.

Edited January 12 by cjcregg

[honeybee13]

That could be interesting if they don't attempt a whitewash. I hope the inquiry has some good questions lined up.

[honeybee13]

Dan Neidle again on the SPMs compensation scheme.

The Post Office paid £15.75 compensation to one of its victims. Here's the nine ways they minimise payouts.

WWW.TAXPOLICY.ORG.UK

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I keep going back to this Daily Mail story in which a postmaster who was financially ruined received only £8,000 compensation. How could that...

 

[BankFodder]

Hold Fujitsu to account for Post Office scandal

YOU.38DEGREES.ORG.UK

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The firm at the heart of the Post Office scandal continues to be handed numerous government contracts paid for by millions of taxpayers money...

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

I understand the ire at Fujitsu, and unquestionably they were aware of the issues - BUT until we hear more it would be quite normal for a service provider NOT to comment on a customers decisions - Not 'on their side' but I would be surprised if they weren't specifically required to keep shtum

Anyone noted any info re Fujitsu staff lying about the issues with the Horizon system? Especially in court or regarding any of the cases .. Were any that did that PO staff/investigators and lawyers?

I'll be very interested to see details of the sign off by PO of the system and the reports of system testing from Fujitsu

[honeybee13]

Post Office 'Faces £100mn tax bill' and potential insolvency

Warning comes after tax relief was claimed on compensation paid, potentially boosting executive bonuses

https://archive.is/tysHu

[cjcregg]

11 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Anyone noted any info re Fujitsu staff lying about the issues with the Horizon system? Especially in court or regarding any of the cases .. 

 

Do you suffer from dyslexia?

[tobyjugg2]

Why?

and why is that any form of reasonable answer to a significant issue?

What I do have is auto correct on - probably a mistake

Edited January 13 by tobyjugg2

[brassnecked]

4 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

Post Office 'Faces £100mn tax bill' and potential insolvency

Warning comes after tax relief was claimed on compensation paid, potentially boosting executive bonuses

https://archive.is/tysHu

This gets worse by the day Bonuses enhanced, they should be scrapped for now.

[tobyjugg2]

Worth a read

Indicated how long there have been issues - and deceit

 

Tony Blair was warned about ‘flawed’ Horizon system, memo shows | Post Office Horizon scandal | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

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Documents released by inquiry into Post Office scandal show ex-PM and adviser discussing concerns

"Alistair Darling was against the deal, but the department for trade and industry was more supportive."

In response, the former prime minister said: “I would favour Option 1 (pressing ahead with Horizon) but for Geoff’s statement that the system itself is flawed.

“Surely there must be a clear view on this. Speak to me on that: ie reading the enclosed paper, it all focuses on the financial deal.

Lord Mandelson told then chief secretary to the Treasury Stephen Byers he believed proceeding with Horizon was the “only sensible choice” available.

He said the system had been “thoroughly evaluated by independent experts” who pronounced it “viable, robust and of a design which should accommodate future technological developments”.

A spokesperson for Blair said: “As the documents show, and make completely clear, Mr Blair took the issue very seriously.

“His response to the Mulgan note, and in other interactions, was to raise the issue of the viability and reliability of the end project as this was his overarching concern. He subsequently received these reassurances.

The document does not reveal any concerns at the time that Horizon software could lead to post office operators being wrongfully prosecuted for fraud, theft and false accounting.

So, the focus needs to be on PO accountability/criminality .. and any others leading from evidence resulting.

[tobyjugg2]

and re PO/Fujitsu culpability

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/SUBS0000025 - Phase 3 Closing Submissions on behalf of Fujitsu Services Limited.pdf

compare that with

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/SUBS0000024 - Phase 3 Closing Submissions on behalf of Post Office Limited.pdf

 

Do statements seem to state it was PO who required that call center imply/state 'no one else was having issues

- seems that way to me

Edited January 13 by tobyjugg2