Autopoint York - Used car dealer has me distraught. Consumer Rights Act 2015

[BankFodder]

Thanks. it sounds as if you may have become victim of a very slick operation.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Could I ask a couple of question in addition to the info I posted

 

1. After what you have mentioned in your last post does any of the documentation/invoices etc that you signed mention at all that this was a 'Trade Sale'?

 

2. The Email that you were sent from Ross Alexander (please do not post what I ask on this here please pm a Site Team Member with it) what Email Address did he use when sending that Email to you? (i.e. was it a personal email address or one of the companies I have posted email address?)

 

3. With the Email sent from Ross Alexander to yourself does it contain any 'Disclaimer'?.

 

[BankFodder]

12 hours ago, HubrisAlight said:

I received this email earlier today, it's the first and only response I have received in the 19 days spent trying to speak to someone in an after-sales capacity at Autopoint.

 

 

 

I have followed the company via the companieshouse website and am already familiarising myself with the county court claims procedure. I will absolutely be taking this through the county court system in the event it cannot be dealt with in a more civil matter. 

 

Thanks to everyone who has responded for all of the research and advice. I have saved everything. I have organised and backed up the screenshots and saved webpages of the advertisements that incorrectly advertised the car, the sales documentation that definitively show the car was previously sold as a used car and am archiving all communication records including telephone logs that show just how many times I have called in the hope of speaking to someone in aftersales.

 

I will post and let you know as things progress. Apologies for not posting as expected last night. 

 

 

 

 

I think it might be an idea to move this on slightly. I would suggest that if you don't get any further response by close of business today, that you send a letter of claim so that at least you are beginning the pre-action protocol so that you are fully prepared to go at the moment that it seems to be appropriate.

Sending a letter of claim doesn't commit you to taking action but it simply satisfies a desirable and highly recommended first step which the courts would normally expect you to have complied with.
In view of the whole situation, it seems to me that my original suggestion of giving an initial seven days warning is effectively just increasing the risk for you of finding that the business has phoenixed.

[HubrisAlight]

On 02/12/2019 at 00:54, stu007 said:

Hi

 

Could I ask a couple of question in addition to the info I posted

 

1. After what you have mentioned in your last post does any of the documentation/invoices etc that you signed mention at all that this was a 'Trade Sale'?

 

2. The Email that you were sent from Ross Alexander (please do not post what I ask on this here please pm a Site Team Member with it) what Email Address did he use when sending that Email to you? (i.e. was it a personal email address or one of the companies I have posted email address?)

 

3. With the Email sent from Ross Alexander to yourself does it contain any 'Disclaimer'?.

 

 

Hello, thanks for posting.

 

1. I received a single A4 document titled 'Vehicle Sales Invoice'. I signed a duplicate of the same document so Autopoint have one and I have one. There is no reference to a trade sale.

 

2. I will PM you and BankFodder now/.

 

3. The email I received was sent as a reply to the rejection letter that I emailed to Autopoint. There is no disclaimer, only the standard footer/email signature with the Autopoint name and contact details shown. 

 

On 02/12/2019 at 07:23, BankFodder said:

 

I think it might be an idea to move this on slightly. I would suggest that if you don't get any further response by close of business today, that you send a letter of claim so that at least you are beginning the pre-action protocol so that you are fully prepared to go at the moment that it seems to be appropriate.

Sending a letter of claim doesn't commit you to taking action but it simply satisfies a desirable and highly recommended first step which the courts would normally expect you to have complied with.
In view of the whole situation, it seems to me that my original suggestion of giving an initial seven days warning is effectively just increasing the risk for you of finding that the business has phoenixed.

 

I think you are right, waiting around has gotten me nowhere so far. I am going to have a good read through your Small Claims Actions in the County Court FAQ and related site material and send a letter of claim - if I hear nothing from them as I expect. 

 

Thanks again 

[BankFodder]

57 minutes ago, HubrisAlight said:

 

... and send a  letter of claim - if I hear nothing from them as I expect. 

 

Thanks again 

 

Meaning – when? This is an open-ended undertaking. It suggests that you don't have a plan.

[HubrisAlight]

I will send via recorded delivery and email at roughly 5PM tomorrow when I finish work. 

[BankFodder]

I suggest that you post a draft here and maybe we will be able to help to tweak it for you before you send it.

[HubrisAlight]

Ok, thank you. I will begin a draft right away and post a little later tonight.

[HubrisAlight]

I have attached my draft letter of claim and have a couple of questions:

 

1. I am uncertain as to how much I should be claiming for. I obviously want a full refund but have also incurred costs in insurance, tax, road cover and correcting the cars oil level in order to prevent damage to it. I don't really care about those costs too much as I feel they pale in comparison to what I may be in for if I keep the car, as you know I have no faith in Autopoint and vehicle they have supplied to me. Do you think adding costs on top of the purchase price would affect the likelihood that this goes to court?

 

2. From the legal advice I have received it would seem that Autopoint have breached the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. Should I be citing this and the Consumer Rights Act 2015 contravention within the letter of claim.

 

I understand that the wording of the letter of claim can be very important if things were to proceed to the court system so I am concerned about this stage.

 

Many thanks

 

Letter of claim - redacted PDF.pdf

[BankFodder]

I've had a look at your draft letter and it's pretty good. I'm going to suggest a couple of amendments and you can decide what to do. The wording of the letter technically is not massively important. We really need to do is to say what your gripe is and what you're going to do about it if it's not resolved within a certain amount of time. You've done that.

I'm going to make some amendments which will up the ante a bit. You can decide. Also, you have given 14 days but frankly I would be tempted to make it a little bit shorter – say, 10 days which means about Friday week. Given the fact that you've been chasing him and also given his record, I'm a bit sorry that we didn't sent it earlier.

[HubrisAlight]

OK. I have all evening free and will be ready to make any changes and get it sent off. Thank you.

[BankFodder]

Quote

 

 Dear Ross Alexander.

Vehicle registration number XXX: Letter of Claim

 

I am writing this letter to inform you that I intend to make a county court claim against you.  in the County Court system.

 

This is in relation to my purchase of a BMW 330ci car, registration of ######## that I paid for on 31/10/2019 and received 08/11/2019. My complaints are in regard to the advertisement and sale of the car, the condition of the car and the total lack of aftersales provided or made available to me.

 

The car was falsely advertised, falsely described by you and your staff and ultimately mis-sold to me. I have documented your Autotrader and Ebay advertisements that both state the car as being a ‘one owner vehicle’. This was uppermost in my mind and a crucial factor in deciding to view the car nevermind purchase it. In in fact I have discovered that it has had five previous owners. Is this correct?

 

The car was supplied to me in an unsatisfactory condition, the engine oil level being critically low upon collection, despite a pre-delivery inspection having being carried out according to your own documentation. In addition, an important component is missing from the vehicle after it was removed by your garage only to never be replaced, that being the engine under-shield.
 

Autopoint has not provided me with an aftersales service of any description. Over the past three weeks I have sought to have the aforementioned issues addressed. I first called to discuss the issues I was facing and detailed them to an Autopoint staff member on 12/11/2019 and am yet to hear anything in response, this is despite numerous phone calls and emails to you in the weeks since that have only been met with promises of communication that have never materialised.
 

On the XXX date I wrote to you by email and asserted my right to reject the vehicle under the Consumer Rights Act 2015
 

I am formally rejecting the vehicle and I wish to arrange to return it to you and for you provide me with a refund of the amount I paid: £3250.00 an am once again requesting this. In lieu of this please respond to this letter within 14 days and give explanation as to why you do not agree to this.    No! You must not put this!

Additionally, I have incurred certain expenses in respect of insurance, tax, oil and also the costs incurred in travelling to your dealership to collect the vehicle and the cost of driving it back to my home.
 

I’m prepared to forego these additional expenses if you will provide me with my refund without any trouble but if you will not refund me within 14 days, then I shall begin court proceedings against you to recover my refund, ancillary expenses, interest plus claim fees and without further notice.

 

I hope you will not force this matter into the courts. You can be sure that the court will be informed of your reputation for this kind of mis-selling and the fact that you have been previously convicted of a related offence in the criminal courts.
 

I should also inform you that in view of your reputation and conviction, I require that you make a proposal for immediate payment either in cash, bankers draft or a verifiable transfer of the outstanding sum to my bank account.

 

I can assure you that if I do not have the money in full by the expiry of the deadline given in this letter, that I will start the claim. It is up to you to make some suitable arrangement for the collection of the vehicle but at the time that you advise me as to what those arrangements are, you will also have to advise me as to your arrangements for payment of my refund.

Believe me

 

 

You will see my suggested edits above. If you are happy with them then that's fine. Check that everything is correct including the number of owners.

Only send it off if you absolutely intend to go ahead with the threat. Do not bother send the letter if there is any chance that you aren't totally happy to begin proceedings. You have given 14 days. On day 15 issue the papers. Spend the intervening time opening a MoneyClaim Online account and drafting your claim there. Get it all completely ready so you are ready to click it off on day 15.

You will see that I have strongly recommended that you remove the sentence in which you apparently invite him to give some justification for his behaviour. By doing this you have immediately handed him back control and you were inviting him to get into some protracted correspondence.

This would be a ridiculous step to take and you will simply become a victim again. I suggest that you send the letter making it clear what will happen if your demands are not fully met by day 14.

Also, because he seems to be untrustworthy, I'm very worried that you will part with the vehicle and not have the money in your pocket. This is going to be difficult to manage. He will have to make arrangements to collect the vehicle – or else you will have to make arrangements to drive it to his garage. I would be very unhappy about the latter because I can imagine that you would arrive at the garage and suddenly the money is not available or the garage is even closed and you will have then driven a fairly long distance with a long distance to return.

I would suggest that you demand that he collect the vehicle but that you will not allow it to be taken without the money and I have suggested as much in the letter.

You can post up a draft of your claim form here before you click it off on money claim

 

MoneyClaim Online

 

[BankFodder]

And now here is a word for you and also for anyone else who reads this thread.

We have dozens of threads here where the story is that people have bought second-hand vehicles from dealers who are far away from them. A cheap vehicle plus long distance is an absolute recipe for trouble. Don't do it.

The country is littered with cheap high mileage vehicles and there is no need ever to travel more than 30 or 40 miles at the very outside to buy one. Even this would be pretty extreme, in my view.

Second-hand vehicles are naturally going to be more risky than new ones and in any event they are going to need more looking after. People never seem to factor in the cost of having to drive long distance to the dealer to get a repair. Or in the not uncommon event that the vehicle is not working at all, to arrange its return somehow to the dealer simply to get a repair – or else have to face paying for repair at a nearby garage without any means of getting a refund from the original dealer.

Once people start to factor in these kinds of considerations, they will realise how crazy it is to drive 100 or 200 miles to buy an old second-hand car. Or even 75 miles.

Of course cowboy dealers thrive on this kind of thing. The further away their customer lives – the better the dealer likes it because the less likely there is that there will be any comeback.

And finally, it is a given that the people who don't have enough money to buy anything other than a cheap second-hand vehicle, are the people who can least afford the problems when the thing goes wrong.

Don't do it

[HubrisAlight]

Thank you very much for the suggested edits, I will be using all of them and sending the email and recorded letter tomorrow. I will post up a final draft later, it will definitely be posted here tomorrow morning.

11 hours ago, BankFodder said:

You will see my suggested edits above. If you are happy with them then that's fine. Check that everything is correct including the number of owners.

 

I have a 'Used vehicle order' document dated July 2007 that refers to the car being sold by a dealership, the car was first registered in 2004 . I also received the V5C Registration documents that states: 'No. of former keepers 5'. As I referenced in my original post this does not necessarily mean the car has had 5 former owners as the definition of owner and vehicle are not interchangeable, somebody messing up their details on a form or putting their car in a spouse's name could create a new owner in the DVLA system. The way I see it, the car may have had two previous owners or it may have had five. To my knowledge I have no way of checking this in more detail. 

 

My understanding is that the car was purchased by the owner previous to me in 2007 before being sold/traded in to a BMW garage late in October this year, before Autopoint purchased the car from them. I was told by Ross that the bulk of their cars are sourced from a BMW dealership in the North-East. I would imagine it's the vehicles that are not good enough or not fitting with the stock profile of a main BMW dealer. 

The car does not have a 'bad' history, but it was clearly listed as one owner and that is definitely not the case. Legally I don't know what means as it would not affect the vehicles value much, it did however affect my decision to purchase the car.

 

11 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Also, because he seems to be completely untrustworthy, I'm very worried that you will part with the vehicle and not have the money in your pocket. This is going to be difficult to manage. He will have to make arrangements to collect the vehicle – or else you will have to make arrangements to drive it to his garage. I would be very unhappy about the latter because I can imagine that you would arrive at the garage and suddenly the money is not available or the garages even closed and you will have then driven a fairly long distance with a long distance to return.

I would suggest that you demand that he collect the vehicle but that you will not allow it to be taken without the money and I have suggested as much in the letter.

 

This concerns me also as I would imagine they would want to inspect and drive the vehicle. The car has not been damaged/altered in anyway whatsoever but I suppose they would want to drive the car in order to see that it is in the same running condition as it was when I took delivery. I am extremely wary of them trying to take possession of the vehicle before refunding me and will proceed accordingly.

 

I found this on the Citizens Advice Page

Quote

 

You should also say that you and the defendant should both follow the court’s rules on what to do. It’s a good idea to check the court rules.

Say: ‘I refer you to the Practice Direction on pre-action conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules, and in particular to paragraphs 13-16 which set out the sanctions the court may impose if you fail to comply with the Practice Direction.’

 

I am guessing it's not important to include that. 

 

I added the section regarding them explaining their decision after viewing this: Citizens Advice Template .  Your explanation makes sense and I will be removing it. 

[HubrisAlight]

15 hours ago, BankFodder said:

You will see my suggested edits above. If you are happy with them then that's fine. Check that everything is correct including the number of owners.

 

I have a 'Used vehicle order' document dated July 2007 that refers to the car being sold with . I also received the V5C Registration documents that states: 'No. of former keepers 5'. As I referenced in my original post this does not necessarily mean the car has had 5 former owners as the definition of owner and vehicle are not interchangeable, somebody messing up their details on a form or putting their car in a spouse's name could create a new owner in the DVLA system. The way I see it, the car may have had 2 previous owners or it may have had 5. To my knowledge I have no way of knowing.

 

My understanding is that the car was purchased by the owner previous to me in 2007 before being sold/traded in to a BMW garage late in October this year, before Autopoint purchased the car from them. I was told by Ross that the bulk of their cars are sourced from a BMW dealership in the North-East. I would imagine it's the vehicles that are not good enough or not fitting with the stock profile of a main BMW dealer. 

The car does not have a 'bad' history, but it was clearly listed as one owner and that is definitely not the case. Legally I don't know what means as it would not affect the vehicles value much, it did however affect my decision to purchase the car.

 

15 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Also, because he seems to be completely untrustworthy, I'm very worried that you will part with the vehicle and not have the money in your pocket. This is going to be difficult to manage. He will have to make arrangements to collect the vehicle – or else you will have to make arrangements to drive it to his garage. I would be very unhappy about the latter because I can imagine that you would arrive at the garage and suddenly the money is not available or the garages even closed and you will have then driven a fairly long distance with a long distance to return.

I would suggest that you demand that he collect the vehicle but that you will not allow it to be taken without the money and I have suggested as much in the letter.

 

This concerns me also as I would imagine they will want to inspect and drive the vehicle. The car has not been damaged/altered in anyway whatsoever but I suppose they would want to drive the car in order to see that it is in the same running condition as it was when I took delivery.

 

[HubrisAlight]

I have attached my final draft and will be sending it via email and recorded delivery later today, unless any members notice anything/anything missing or have suggestions.

 

It is more or less the same as the first draft , some small changes to wording have been made plus some other amendments that were suggested by @BankFodder.

Updated Letter of Claim - PDF.pdf

[BankFodder]

Quote

My address and contact details
Ross Alexander
Autopoint York
95 Holgate Road York Yorkshire YO24 4AZ
4th of December 2019
Dear Ross Alexander,
Vehicle registration number XXX: Letter of Claim
I am writing this letter to inform you that I intend to make a county court claim against you.
This is in relation to my purchase of a BMW 330ci car, registration of ######## that I paid for on 31/10/2019 and received 08/11/2019. My complaints are in regard to the advertisement and sale of the car, the condition of the car and the total lack of aftersales provided or made available to me.
The car was falsely advertised, falsely described by you and your staff and ultimately mis-sold to me. I have documented your Autotrader and Ebay advertisements that both state the car as being a ‘one owner vehicle’. This was uppermost in my mind and a crucial factor in deciding to view the car nevermind purchase it. In fact, I have discovered and have proof that the car has had multiple previous owners.
The car was supplied to me in an unsatisfactory condition, the engine oil level being critically low upon collection, despite a pre-delivery inspection, including engine oil level, having being carried out according to your own documentation. In addition, an important component is missing from the vehicle after it was removed by your garage only to never be replaced, that being the engine under-shield.
Autopoint has not provided me with an aftersales service of any description. Over the past three weeks I have sought to have the aforementioned issues addressed. I first called to discuss the issues I was facing and detailed them to an Autopoint staff member on 12/11/2019 and am yet to hear anything in response, this is despite numerous phone calls and emails to you in the weeks since that have only been met with promises of communication that have never materialised.
On 30/11/2019 I wrote to you by email and asserted my right to reject the vehicle under the Consumer Rights Act 2015
I am formally rejecting the vehicle and I wish to arrange to return it to you and for you provide me with a refund of the amount I paid: £3250.00
Additionally, I have incurred certain expenses in respect of insurance, tax, oil and also the costs incurred in travelling to your dealership to collect the vehicle and the cost of driving it back to my home.
I’m prepared to forego these additional expenses if you will provide me with my refund without any trouble but if you will not refund me within 14 days, then I shall begin court proceedings against you to recover my refund, ancillary expenses, interest plus claim fees and without further notice.
I hope you will not force this matter into the courts. You can be sure that the court will be informed of your reputation for this kind of mis-selling and the fact that you have been previously convicted of a related offence in the criminal courts.
I should also inform you that in view of your reputation and conviction, I require that you make a proposal for immediate payment either in cash, bankers draft or a verifiable transfer of the outstanding sum to my bank account.
I can assure you that if I do not have the money in full by the expiry of the deadline given in this letter, that I will start the claim. It is up to you to make some suitable arrangement for the collection of the vehicle but at the time that you advise me as to what those arrangements are, you will also have to advise me as to your arrangements for payment of my refund.

Yours Sincerely
My name

 

"Falsely" suggests deliberate intention.  Best not to go there.  "Wrongly described" is better.

 

Sounds fine.

 

Just to be clear.  I think that you have a very high chance of success - enforcement might be more tricky but we will advise you as to that when the time comes.

However, the case is yours to win - or to lose.

[BankFodder]

Any update on this please. It's been a considerable time and we have another person who has a problem with this company apparently. I think we have helped a lot and it would be nice if you let us know what has been the result of all the effort please