Greenlight motors/First response finance - at my 1st MOT i just found out i had a piece of pipe for a catalytic converter! Their MOT passed it 12mts ago!

[Richard2019]

Hi,

bought a car on finance 12 months ago.

The dealer put a new MOT on it the day before I picked it up.

The car has been fine until it went for an MOT today. It failed as the cat converter has been removed and replaced with a pipe.

The garage said its illegal to sell a car without one and also the MOT they had done was also illegal.

He also said my insurance would have been void if I'd have been in an accident.

The advice I've had so far is the car was not fit for purpose so should be due a refund.

Someone else advised to ring DVSA and trading standards but thought I'd give the finance company a chance first.

I've spoken to the finance company who said they'll investigate and get someone to ring me but could be a few days.

The dealer was less than helpful when I spoke to them.

Has anyone any advice as now making payments on a car I can't drive?

I'm disabled and really need my car.

Thanks 

[Ethel Street]

Are you sure the catalytic converter had been removed and replaced by a pipe when you bought it from the dealer? 

Thefts of CCs from cars parked in the street are common. Although I wouldn't have thought the thieves usually hang around to replace it with a piece of pipe.

However, the dealer who sold it may say "it was there when we MOT'd it and sold it to you, it must have been stolen during the year since you bought it from us".

I suspect that the law here will be clear and the argument will be over the facts not the law. Was it missing its CC when you bought it? We can take a good guess at what the dealer is likely to say.

[BankFodder]

Who was the dealer?

What is the name of the finance company?

What is the name of the MOT station?

[Richard2019]

As you've said highly unlikely a thief would take the time to weld a pipe on.

The mechanic did say he could tell the work hadn't been done recently and considering I've not done many miles it would seem likely done by previous owner.

 

Greenlight motors

First response finance 

Unsure of MOT station without digging out old paperwork.

[BankFodder]

Then please dig it out

[Ethel Street]

21 minutes ago, Richard2019 said:

As you've said highly unlikely a thief would take the time to weld a pipe on.

You didn't say it had been welded in your first post.

But irrespective of how it was fixed the issue remains the same. If the dealer rejects your claim and says the CC was there when they sold it then the obligation in court would fall on you to prove (on balance of probabilities) that it wasn't. They don't have to prove it was there.

[dx100uk]

thread title updated

[Richard2019]

Thanks, going off the bad reviews over the past year surely a court should favour me. Seems like a lot are facing issues with cars bought from there.

Do you not think the finance company will also try to get this resolved? At the the end of the day they now have a car which is illegal to be on the road. 

[dx100uk]

would you keep the car if its fixed?. cant see thats been asked , 

[Richard2019]

To be honest I'm not sure, I'm still fuming that I've been driving round for a year with a car that shouldn't be on the road. I've also spent hundreds on insurance for no reason as it would have been void.

[dx100uk]

just type no need to keep hitting quote....

well the car has run a year and most problems should have shown by now so it sounds like a good motor.

theres not alot you can do about your frustration, it happened thats it move on...

im sure the finance company will instruct the dealership to put the car right at no cost to you.

see what @BankFodder suggests

 

dx

 

[BankFodder]

First of all, let me put you straight on the insurance.

If the lack of a catalytic converter did not contribute to some accident then it is extremely unlikely that an insurance company would be able to withdraw cover.
Of course the insurance company would immediately dive into "Lost Denial" mode and they will try to leverage the lack of the converter and the fact that the MOT was not valid and on that basis they would try to abandon you.
However, in my view – I don't think they would succeed. It will take a lot of work but I don't think you need to worry.

Secondly, now that you are aware of the welded pipe you need to get a catalytic converter fitted immediately. How much is the cost? You need to get a couple of quotes and then choose the cheapest. You need to get this done ASAP – and then come back here so that we understand the value of your claim.

In the meantime you need to inform the finance company.

 

Quote

Dear Sir/Mdm

Reference Finance Agreement XXXX – My Vehicle Registration Number XXX
Formal Complaint for the Ombudsman

As you know, on XXX date I purchased the above vehicle from XXX motors and the cost of £XXX. The purchase was financed by yourselves under the above hire purchase agreement and because this was a hire purchase agreement, you are responsible for the condition of the vehicle as if I had bought it from you directly.

The vehicle was bought with a brand-new MOT which was issued by XXX company one day before I collected it from XX dealers.
I have just visited my own garage to have the MOT renewed and I was surprised to find that the car failed its MOT certificate and I was informed that the car did not have a catalytic converter fitted and in fact a pipe had been welded into its place.

Clearly this vehicle has been without a catalytic converter since I purchased it from the dealer using your hire purchase agreement. Clearly this was done deliberately because a pipe was welded in place and I have driven it around in that condition for one year.

It is not clear that the XXX dealers were aware of this at the time they sold it to me but certainly, it is clear that it should not have passed its MOT when it was tested only a day before I collected it.
It is clear that either the MOT was carried out in a sloppy way. I'm not going to use this letter to outline the other possible explanations as to why the vehicle was given an MOT pass certificate and why the garage then sold me a vehicle in an unlawful condition.

I am writing to you to put your notice that I am immediately addressing the situation. I am putting the car in to a garage to have it fitted with a catalytic converter in order to put it into a lawful condition and I am then proceeding to put it in for its annual MOT test.

When I received the bill for the work involved in supplying and installing the catalytic converter, I shall be sending the bill to you and I expect you to reimburse me within 14 days of having received that document.

Because I anticipate that you will raise objections, please consider that this letter is my formal complaint to you and that you have eight weeks to provide me with a final response so we can then move to the ombudsman.
Of course I shall be delighted if you deal with this in a sensible businesslike way and provide me with my reimbursement without any objections.

If you have any comments to make then by all means let me have them.

Yours faithfully

this may not be to your taste but I suggest that you send it anyway

[BankFodder]

And sorry, I have crossposted with my site team colleague @dx100uk and for once I think I am more cynical than he is and although I agree with them that I hope that they will deal with it properly, I suggest that you send the above letter just in case.

[Richard2019]

Thank you for that letter, I will send that tomorrow.

The cost of a second hand cat would be around £1000 then fitting costs. I do want to be mobile again but reluctant to spend a penny until I've heard from the finance company.

I've been caught out once before doing that and ended up out of pocket. 

Thanks again, appreciate the reply and the letter.

 

[BankFodder]

Well put it this way. You don't pay the money then you don't have a car. Also, it can now be proved because of the MOT failure that you knew about the welded pipe and so if an insurance decided to leverage this against you you would have a much bigger struggle on your hands.

I hope that the hire purchase company does come over with the money straightaway – but don't hold your breath. I certainly wouldn't.

You should get the problem fixed and new MOT sorted out so that you are on the road. We can help you deal with the hire purchase company if they won't play ball.

However, in order to sue them for the money you will have had to have spent it first.

Keep the finance company aware of everything you are doing including expenditure that you are about to incur. You should get a definite quote for the replacement of the converter then pass the quote to the insurer immediately so they can never say that you have acted without informing them.
If you make an appointment to have the converter fitted – then let the finance company know immediately the time and date of the appointment as well as the cost so that they can never say that they weren't informed in advance and given an opportunity to comment.
This is extremely important.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by BankFodder
Dictation typos fixed

[BankFodder]

I'm also going to add that we are starting to become very sceptical of used car sellers who magically come up with an MOT the day before or even the very day of the sale.
We ask ourselves – maybe without justification – whether the dealer has a rather cosy relationship with the MOT station and the MOT station knows that they will keep on getting business if they nod the MOTs through.

We get a lot of people on this forum who buy second-hand cars with brand-new MOTs and then with in a very short time they find serious defects and realise that the car should never have passed its MOT at all.
I'm not saying that it has happened in your case but it is beyond doubt that a lot of MOT's are dodgy.

So our suggestion would always be if anybody buys a car with a brand-new MOT, that they should take the car immediately and have a new MOT done at a fully independent garage and compare the results.
Discovering defects at an early stage makes it easier to force the dealer to address the situation.

And we are still waiting for you to give us the name of the MOT station.

[Homer67]

It's not illegal to de-cat a car, several of my friends have done it to increase performance and I have done it on one of my bikes, you should declare it as a modification when you insure the vehicle though.

As far as I have always been aware the MOT test states if it's not there, it's not tested - now that might only apply to bikes which are not emissions tested but it seems to be the same for most vehicles but I reckon a de-cat car is going to struggle to pass the emissions test.

Having said that de-catting a car does in no way make it unroadworthy.

[Richard2019]

Spoken to CAB and also trading standards this morning.

Its definitely illegal on a car as classed as not roadworthy. That also goes for insurance whether declared or not, still not road worthy so insurance void.

Car was sold as not fit for purpose, under the consumer act they are in the wrong.

Surprisingly it falls on the finance company to deal with this.

Trading standards and the DVSA will deal with the dealer and garage.

Plenty of backstreet MOT centres about that will take a bribe for those who want a decat car. 

[dx100uk]

depends if it was already declared as decat'd with the relevant authorities.

it was not, and nor was such declared to you at or before sale. it's non spec for the car and as such renders it 'not as described'. as a buyer would assume everything is as std build.

 

[Homer67]

23 hours ago, Richard2019 said:

Spoken to CAB and also trading standards this morning. 

Neither of those bodies are motor vehicle industry experts and I wouldn't ask CAB to tell me the time and believe them!

It is not illegal to de-cat a vehicle, have you seen how many modified cars there are out there?

It's a huge hobby/pastime/following/culture - call it what you like, if those cars were legally declared as unroadworthy why aren't the Police pulling them over and seizing them 

[lolerz]

No CC would invalidate the MOT and hence make it unroadworthy. This is because it will no longer adhere to the emissions standards it was designed to originally meet. The CAB is right in this instance.

You can read more here: 

Modifying your vehicle’s emissions: the legal, safety and health implications - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

If it was cut out by a thief, you most likely would have had a check engine light illuminated due to the sensors detecting a difference compared to what it should have at the end of the exhaust. Saying that if a thief did it, they certainly wouldn't have welded a pipe to it and your car would have sounded like a rally car due to the massive hole in the exhaust!

As mentioned before, there is a large car culture scene however you'll find that these places either pay for MOT stations to "ignore" the de-cat or have the cat refitted for MOT and then remove it again afterwards. A sports cat is the legal option (still gives you the increase in power and the better sound) but they cost a lot more than simply cutting out the cat and sticking a bit of pipe in its place.

This has definitely been done on purpose by the previous owner, however as it's after 6 months the onus is on you to prove it.

Report the original MOT station to the DVSA, get the ball rolling on that one. You'll likely not hear anything back from them other than an acknowledgement, but at least you've done it.

[Richard2019]

Thanks trading standards said the same as you along with the mechanic and MOT station I used. Removing the cat made it not road worthy as would fail the emissions and therefore sold a car not fit for purpose.

CAB are obligated to report to trading standards and the DVSA. I had to contact both and pass on full details. I hope something is done as it seems its the finance company that will be worse off. I also now realise why the dealer fobbed me off straight away. 

[dx100uk]

1 hour ago, lolerz said:

This has definitely been done on purpose by the previous owner, however as it's after 6 months the onus is on you to prove it

the new mot refusal proves it. however its not a fault that's occurred since ownership , it was sold like it , so proof is not necessary.

the finance company will sort the repair will go after the dealership for payment, the buyer doesn't need to prove anything.

 

[lolerz]

I do agree with you dx I just wouldn't expect the finance company to roll over and take it!

[dx100uk]

they have no choice its their car and its covered by the consumer credit act section 75 as well, they have no way out but to act.

#dx