HSBC Going to Court to obtain my data!??

[craigten]

I understand completely, I really do. I appreciate ALL the help I get on here and think it’s the most wonderful tool available. 

I have previously made a relatively decent donation on here, and will do so again.

 

What you say doesn’t sound ‘tough’, it sounds perfectly correct.

 

I think organising my files as your post suggests, is wonderful and I’ll get to it as soon as I can!!

 

Thank you!

[BankFodder]

Have you sent the new SAR?

[craigten]

Yes -  three sent: one to each Coventry address and one to Iron Mountain.

 

By the way, I’ve always found HSBC notoriously difficult to get in to communication with via email as they, in my opinion, don’t want to be tied in to a paper trail and would rather have a different person talk to you on the phone, thus easily muddying the water....in my experience.

 

However, I’m now in email communication with a Nigel Cates,  Head of Service Recovery, who put his name to the £500 letter.

 

Where shall I start? I’m thinking that verifying that they do store info on microfilm would be a good start?

Edited June 4, 2019 by craigten

[BankFodder]

Yes that would be a good start but you should have sent off a second SAR by now.

[craigten]

Email sent, content below:

Thank you very much for your kind reply. I would appreciate it very much if you could help me - email communication is the only way I can communicate due to work hours and I find this method much easier.

There are a few issues I’d like to discuss but firstly please let me explain my situation;

Following a recent DSAR, part of what I received  was an Internal Memo detailing a previous request for details of loans I’ve previously had with HSBC. The memo explained that the documents were held with ‘Iron Mountain’, which is a data storage company. 
It would seem that Iron Mountain archive data digitally for HSBC. Previously I’ve received archive data from HSBC that was held on microfilm / microfiche.

Please can I ask if HSBC still store customers’ archive data on microfilm / microfiche?
 

No reply as yet.

 

 

 

An update:

• Advice greatly appreciated and taken on board
• Three DSARs sent (two Coventry addresses and Iron Mountain)
• File arranging due to be done this Friday (thanks for the excellent advice on that - I will try!!)
• You say you only have one chance – but that's not correct. You have five chances because as I understand it you think that you have five policies. You could start probing by simply claiming against one policy and see what happens. - A wonderful option that I had not considered - I shall start the ball rolling tomorrow night.
• Re you guys giving up your time and the reminder that you have lives too - great reminder, perhaps for others as well as me. Thank you all of you and let's all remember to thank you and contribute whether we win our cases or not.

[BankFodder]

Contribution/donations are not a factor here – although thank you for referring to it.

What is a factor is that we help anybody who comes here free of charge but we expect them to prioritise the issues so that they sort out their own problems quickly and also make it easier for us.

Maybe arranging your files will make absolutely  no difference – but you never know, you might find that you get a new perspective or even discover new information – or else discover further information which you think is missing and should be supplied to you.

[craigten]

Brief tangent here for a second: According to this article, HSBC have an archive in the East End of London....in a building shared with....Iron Mountain:

Link:

https://thefinanser.com/2010/05/bank-histories-reflecting-our-histories.html/

 

Pertinent text:

Quote

 

‘Cos I recently had a visit to the HSBC archives.

HSBC’s archives are in a run-down converted hospital barracks from the 1950s in the East End of London, in a shared building with Iron Mountain Storage Company.

Through dark and dank corridors you walk into a little room where Tina Staples heads up the archive, with two colleagues who run the place.

 

Is this a direction to also head?

 

Re Iron Mountain, although this is in Argentina, it's still HSBC and it's still some seriously dodgy file destroying going on:

Link:

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Argentina-HSBC-Embroiled-in-Deliberate-Fire-Coverup-20150310-0035.html

 

Pertinent text:

Quote

 

The Financial Information Unit of Argentina is investigating a conspiracy between Iron Mountain and its major clients - international financial companies such as banks HSBC, BNP Paribas and JP Morgan - to destroy documentation involving economic crimes, by causing a fire in the company’s warehouses.

According to José Sbatella, the head of the  Unit, "They have come to justify the lack of documentation by saying they lost it in the fire. However, this does not explain why these companies have not filed any lawsuits against Iron Mountain for this." 

He added that only two of the 29 companies that lost documentats made complaints against Iron Mountain.

"It seems to me that the other 29 had no trouble with it," he said, ironically.

 

 

[craigten]

On 04/06/2019 at 22:46, craigten said:

Email sent, content below:

Thank you very much for your kind reply. I would appreciate it very much if you could help me - email communication is the only way I can communicate due to work hours and I find this method much easier.

There are a few issues I’d like to discuss but firstly please let me explain my situation;

Following a recent DSAR, part of what I received  was an Internal Memo detailing a previous request for details of loans I’ve previously had with HSBC. The memo explained that the documents were held with ‘Iron Mountain’, which is a data storage company. 
It would seem that Iron Mountain archive data digitally for HSBC. Previously I’ve received archive data from HSBC that was held on microfilm / microfiche.

Please can I ask if HSBC still store customers’ archive data on microfilm / microfiche?
 

No reply as yet.

 

An update on Mr Nigel Cates and his 'team':

He and I have continued to communicate via email (I have to send two to prompt him) and he has attempted to put ,me through to his 'team' to help resolve my questions: Let me tell you all here that trying to get an answer on the microfiche question from him and his team via email is like trying to nail jelly to a wall - each time I email I get a call from them but I don't answer because i want them to put it in email form.

 

Here's an example:

Dear Mr xxxxx

 

This is further to your email on 3 June and the subsequent

emails sent about availability of the historic documents on

microfilm or microfiche.

 

My colleague Srinivas contacted the relevant department and

unfortunately, it's taking longer than expected to get

their response.

 

We expect that we should be in a position to respond to you

on Monday, 10th of June.

 

In the meantime, we take this opportunity to thank you for

your continued patience.

 

If  you would like to discuss this in any more detail,

please contact my colleague Srinivas on 03455 873 410 or

you could email him. We are open from 9.00 am to 5.00 pm

Monday to Friday (except bank holidays).

 

Yours sincerely

 

Nigel Cates

Head of Service Recovery

 

He says that I can email his colleague but doesn't give any email address.

 

In a previous correspondence, in answer to my question regarding microfiche, he replied to say that it 'isn't something I know about'to which I replied that I find it hard to believe being as he is named by the FCA as the Head of Service Recovery and Complaints.

 

I will keep plugging away.....  

[craigten]

Hi all,

For anyone who is interested in my slight tangent to get an answer from HSBC whether they do in fact store customer records on microfiche, I have today received two different replies (after much pushing):

 

From a 'Team manager':

Thank you for your email sent to Nigel Cates about the historic loan documents. My colleague Srinivas tried to contact you today, but wasn’t able to speak with you.

 

You’d asked us if we hold the Loan documents in digital form on microfilm/microfiche. Having reviewed this with the relevant departments, we’re sorry to inform you that the documents are not held digitally at Iron Mountain.

 

I acknowledge that this is not the response you hoped for, but I trust I have fully explained the Bank’s position in this matter.

 

We’re sorry for the inconvenience caused about this matter.

 

I then complained to Mr Cates that I wasn't asking if they were filed digitally but if they were stored on microfiche (as I suspected that they were trying to get out of answering the question by using the word 'digitally', which is not the same thing).

Mr Cates has just replied with this:

Dear ******

 

Apologies, this much seem so much harder than perhaps it should be. The straight answer to your question is that no, we do not use microfilm or microfiche as a standard means to store customer records, why I think this is proving so hard is that we aren’t sure whether it might be used as an archived, but still workable, solution in some circumstance or other. E.g for a bank as complex and large as HSBC, it wouldn’t be entirely surprising to us if we found that there was a set of customers who had some set of historical data which was kept in an unusual manner. We don’t expect it to be the case, but we need to go through and check. That has a feel of proving a negative, but there are some things which we can do to try to track down all main possibilities.

 

Do you mind if I also check the purpose of the question please – ie what difference it will make? We will endeavour to find out the accurate answer re microfiche, but if there is a reason you are asking we might also be able to answer that separately.

Kind regards

 

Nigel

 

Thoughts?

[craigten]

I had an email today suggesting that the offer of £500 was for the long delay in sorting out my request. I have replied asking specifically if this is what the offer was for (the letter I received was phrased very much, in my opinion, as compensation for being unable to prove that they have lost my data - ie, a breach of GDPR, I did not accept this as I am hoping to to go to the ICO with this an then to the small claims court for a minimum of £750.

 

Thoughts, anyone?

[AndyOrch]

But it would cost you £70 to issue a small claim for £750.00...and your not guaranteed a win and may lose and have to pay the defendant fixed costs ?

 

Is it really worth it for £250?

[craigten]

I see your point, however, I would first report it to the ICO and get their confirmation that it was a breach first. I believe that is highly advantageous?

 

Also, as I mentioned above, it now seems that the £500 was as compensation for them taking so long to complete their ‘investigation’, but I’ll wait for confirmation on this.

Edited June 14, 2019 by craigten

[AndyOrch]

And if the ICO declare it is a breach...then what...slapped wrist ?

 

Whether its compensation for taking so long or is in fact a veiled attempt payment of guilt...what does it matter....they offered £500 you wanted £750....I really cant see where your going with this ?

 

Andy

[craigten]

Perhaps I should be clearer - losing one’s data / not being able to locate it is a breach of GDPR. In essence, they can’t tell me where the data is and they don’t know where it went. 

 

Re the ICO and the ‘slap on the wrists’ - no, it can be much more than that, including fines, etc.

And the point of going to the ICO is to get their judgement as that in addition to the claim gives them no room for manoeuvre.

And £750 seems to be the minimum for data breaches.

 

Re you not knowing where I’m going with this - an organisation losing your data is a big deal. Do you not think?

Edited June 14, 2019 by craigten

[AndyOrch]

Yes it is a big deal but if the data is over 6 years old and concluded they are not required to retain it.I suppose as I asked at the very outset of this thread why you required the copy agreements and what were your intentions ?

 

Whatever the ICO findings...slapped wrist ...fine imposed...it wont add any clout to your case.

If your not happy with £500 and prefer £750.00...why not go the whole hog and submit a claim up to the maximum of £10 K ?

You will have to provide evidence that their breach has caused financial loss and quantify your claim.

 

If you were to submit a part 8 claim as you should in this type of claim and leave it to the discretion of the court...again they will ask what detriment has this breached caused you and order you to quantify your losses..distress...and compensation requirements. 

 

If its for PPI then it would be over 6 years old and you may struggle assuming it is PPI ...as you still have not really stated what you require the data for ?

 

Andy

[craigten]

Re whether or not they are not required to retain it, I guess this is my main point;

Their privacy policy states ‘We keep information in line with our data retention policy. For example, if you’re a customer, we’ll normally keep core banking data for seven years from the end of our relationship’.

 

Let me say that I don’t necessarily ‘prefer’ £750 (although obviously it’s better than £500), it’s just that if the minimum is £750, and HSBC probably know this, I don’t see that I should accept their first offer. Hope that makes sense.

 

Re your question of why I want it, apologies if I didn’t post this (I thought I did), it’s because I know I was persuaded to take out PPI on loans I applied for by the then bank manager as he said it could help my application.

I would very much like copies of the loan applications but even though following my DSAR they supplied documents as far back as 2006, they haven’t supplied these.

When I questioned this, they quoted the six year Data Protection line but then (thanks to Bankfodder, I think) when I stated that the Data protection does in no way mention six years, they followed it up with a letter saying I was right and offered £500. 

 

To quote mrabody from my other thread (I thought this was an interesting read):

 

Take a look at Halliday v Creation Consumer Finance Limited. The claimant was awarded £750 for distress for what the court held to be a minor breach. 

 

https://www.hempsons.co.uk/news-articles/damages-distress-awarded-breach-data-protection-act/

 

In your case I would suggest the breach is considerably more serious as HSBC has lost your data.   They think it may have been destroyed but they have no proof. The fact is they have no clue as to where it is or who has it.   So in addition to the potential loss of your PPI refund I think the distress component is considerably higher than in Halliday. How much higher I cannot say - but you need to start canvassing the case law on damages for distress.   

Edited June 14, 2019 by craigten

[AndyOrch]

In that case make your claim for PPI on the accounts in question before the deadline.......apart from the fact that they cant comply with your requests for the agreements what about the DSAR..has provided any data with regards to the PPI ?

[craigten]

Hi all.

 

I have an ongoing complaint registered with HSBC and they told me last week that I’ve got to wait until the manager dealing with this gets back from her annual leave at the start of July! I’m very unhappy about this - is there anything I can do other than complain about this, which I have?

[AndyOrch]

Thread moved to the appropriate forum...please continue to post here toyour thread.

 

Andy

[craigten]

Hi all, and Andy,

 

In reply to you (sorry for the delay), yes, the DSAR provided some info, here:

PROOF OF PPI MAYBE.pdf

 

To me, this reads as that there were PPI policies, and provides policy numbers. However, without the amounts that the loans were for, is there anything I can do? Aren't the amounts vital to determine the amount to claim?

 

Thank you, to everyone!!

[dx100uk]

and you've already submitted a ppi claim on all of these ppi policy numbers

but hsbc cant match them to any loan agreements nor payments to prove you were actually charged PPI.

 

 

 

 

[craigten]

No I haven't, and the reason I haven't (rightly or wrongly) is that I am trying to get as much info / evidence as I possibly can before doing so.

However, my worry / concern is that what you posted is what will happen....although I will say that from what I can see from my documents, they cannot say that they can't match them to any loan agreements because I do have details of the loans, below, just not the amounts they were for?

 

2010 CONFIRMING 4 LOANS BUT NONE HAD PPI - HOW CAN THEY TELL02062019.pdf

[dx100uk]

yes you have 

all the details are in the 2010 letters from hsbc.

 

hsbc would be quite within their rights to refuse your PPI claim as its now well outside of 6yrs since your last complaint.

the only outside chance you might have is to simply send a fos CQ to the underwriters for those ppi policies you have the numbers for.

but who they might be is another matter.

[craigten]

Thanks for this. Ah I see.

Does it make any difference that HSBC denies there were PPI policies in response to my request back then, but following my DSAR, we can see that there were PPI policies?

[dx100uk]

well this is where you might be able to get them.

the wording of their replies concerning the original PPI reclaims might be their undoing.

 

if they simply said there was no PPI on these loans, then at that stage, there wasn't.

and this new information recently discovered obviously opens the door for a fresh PPI complaint as they didnt look hard enough before!!

 

if they said there were no PPI policies associated with the relevant loan numbers you quoted then, they are now liars, there was!!

because they could not match the PPI policies to your loan numbers doesn't matter, they should have told you PPI policies existed.

I suspect they were hoping you'd go away.

 

I wont scroll back, but I don't think you've yet to involve or even consult the FOS to date?