council tax liability order but council tax paid as part of rent

[oldbag]

Dear team

 

No matter what I do I cannot post this to your consumer forums online as you won't verify my email which I do not find in the spam folder or any other folder, it is not being sent.

 

Council tax liability order was received after I received a notice to quit from my landlord on July 31st 2017 at [address removed]. At this time I was considered homeless by the council and I have attached all forms to prove it.

 

The agreement shorthold assured tenancy states at 3b that all council tax as might apply to the rental of the room at flat [address removed] will be paid by the landlord as included in the rent, it is signed by both of us but the council says it does not stand and that I owe the tax for the room that is let to me at the property owned by my landlord and where he and his wife also are in residence as the owners of the property. The room has its own cooking facilitys and toilet so not share with rest of house though there are common areas such as the hall.

 

The council tax liability order is dated to 20th august 2017 but i have a tenancy agreement with the council for [another address] from the 14th august 2017 which I prove (attached) There is no case number as it is just part of a batch assignment at bristol magistrates court for the 21st march 2018, there being no court to attend.

 

The senior local taxation officer as Mrs F addresses none of the points I make to her and neither does any council office. They have advised me that I may appeal to a tribunal service but is that the best way forward here.? It seems wrong to me that they can do this in view of all the circumstances with even the dates wrong on the liability order itself, but because there is no court case I can appear at they seem to be able to dictate PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING THEY LIKE WITH NO RECOURSE TO ANY FACTS, AT ALL.

 

The council tax officer states S.6 of the local government finance act

1992 makes my tenancy agreement with my landlord void?

Edited March 15, 2018 by honeybee13
Address and name removed

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

You seem to have posted, I'm a bit confused about what the problem is.

 

Best, HB

[honeybee13]

I've edited out addresses and someone's name to keep this confidential for you.

 

HB

[oldbag]

I have already paid the council tax to my landlord but the council will not accept that. Can I face council tax as a person who is being evicted and regarded as owed a duty of care by the council? ( documented)? The liability order dates are wrong extending 7 days past when i am actually liveing elsewhere - also documented , have tenancy agreement.

[oldbag]

Thank you , that was kind of you.

[ss002d6252]

Dear team

 

No matter what I do I cannot post this to your consumer forums online as you won't verify my email which I do not find in the spam folder or any other folder, it is not being sent.

 

Council tax liability order was received after I received a notice to quit from my landlord on July 31st 2017 at [address removed]. At this time I was considered homeless by the council and I have attached all forms to prove it.

 

The agreement shorthold assured tenancy states at 3b that all council tax as might apply to the rental of the room at flat [address removed] will be paid by the landlord as included in the rent, it is signed by both of us but the council says it does not stand and that I owe the tax for the room that is let to me at the property owned by my landlord and where he and his wife also are in residence as the owners of the property. The room has its own cooking facilitys and toilet so not share with rest of house though there are common areas such as the hall.

 

The council tax liability order is dated to 20th august 2017 but i have a tenancy agreement with the council for [another address] from the 14th august 2017 which I prove (attached) There is no case number as it is just part of a batch assignment at bristol magistrates court for the 21st march 2018, there being no court to attend.

 

The senior local taxation officer as Mrs F addresses none of the points I make to her and neither does any council office. They have advised me that I may appeal to a tribunal service but is that the best way forward here.? It seems wrong to me that they can do this in view of all the circumstances with even the dates wrong on the liability order itself, but because there is no court case I can appear at they seem to be able to dictate PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING THEY LIKE WITH NO RECOURSE TO ANY FACTS, AT ALL.

 

The council tax officer states S.6 of the local government finance act

1992 makes my tenancy agreement with my landlord void?

 

The fact that you vacated earlier than the end of your tenancy may or may not make you liable for the remaining period of council tax (it depends on the exact circumstances and isn't always straight forward) -S6 of the LGFA is the primary legislation for determining liability and terms in the agreement which try to override this will not usually succeed, it does not void your tenancy rather it just ignores aspects which are not relevant for council tax purposes.

 

There is a court hearing for the granting of the liability order at the Magistrates' Court, and you can attend it, but the Magistrates are prevented in law from considering a dispute such as yours over period of liability. A period of liability and the subsequent balance can be adjusted where required, 'wrong dates' won't automatically remove a liability order that has or will be been granted.

 

It is unlikely that an argument over whether it is a 'room' or a 'dwelling' and liable for council tax would succeed so it's likely not worth going down that route. In some ways you have fallen in to one of the biggest traps that catches people - paying council tax to the landlord. In the vast majority of cases this is incorrect, the landlord cannot (with or without your agreement) directly decide who is going to pay a council tax charge.

[oldbag]

I understand my tenancy contract to be a legally binding document between myself and my landlord and signed. If that is the case in law then surely upon that agreement where my landlord states that he covers the council tax then the authorities should pursue my landlord and not me. The fact that they cannot pursue my landlord is absolutely nothing to do with me, it is their loss.

[oldbag]

The fact that they have the date wrong does not matter either? This infers that anyone living anywhere else can be asked to pay council tax for a place they did not even live in. My God, this is sounding like the wild west. Is there any law that si respectable and has a moral grounding? or is the Uk now just full of thugs in cloaks?

[oldbag]

Plus the agreemnt at 3 b states that he will take the resonsility for paying any council tax as may become due not that my landlord orders me to pay a set council tax!

[oldbag]

There is also the situation to consider of being classified as homeless officially and under the direction of an eviction for the dates mentioned. Does that make any difference at all or are the homeless now responsible for any councils demand for money?

[oldbag]

I did not vacate. I was under an eviction order from the court and considered homeless by the council itself! until i was rehoused by them on the 14th august2017, from the eviction date I am surely not liable for council tax?

[oldbag]

Who pays Council Tax?

 

Normally the person who lives in a property will have to pay the Council Tax. The list below shows who should pay in order of responsibility (from top to bottom):

 

1. A resident freeholder
   
2. A resident leaseholder
   
3. A resident statutory or secure tenant
   
4. A resident licensee
   
5. Someone who lives in the property with no security of tenure
   
6. The owner (the person entitled to legal possession)
   

For example:

 

• If there is no resident freeholder (1) then the resident leaseholder (2) will be liable. If there is no resident freeholder (1) nor a resident leaseholder (2) then the resident tenant (3) will be liable to pay etc. until the liable person is determined.
  
• IF MY LANDLORD LIVED IN THE PROPERTY AS RESIDENT THEN HE IS LIABLE FOR ALL COUNCIL TAX ISN'T HE? my landlord keeps flat 4 for himself and his wife and his wife is owner.
  

[ss002d6252]

I understand my tenancy contract to be a legally binding document between myself and my landlord and signed. If that is the case in law then surely upon that agreement where my landlord states that he covers the council tax then the authorities should pursue my landlord and not me. The fact that they cannot pursue my landlord is absolutely nothing to do with me, it is their loss.

 

No - any agreement between you and the landlord cannot override legislation. It is nothing more than a contract between you and the landlord only, it has no bearing on the council.

[ss002d6252]

The fact that they have the date wrong does not matter either? This infers that anyone living anywhere else can be asked to pay council tax for a place they did not even live in. My God, this is sounding like the wild west. Is there any law that si respectable and has a moral grounding? or is the Uk now just full of thugs in cloaks?

 

No, it doesn't - what it means is that dates are regarded to be correct based on the council's determination of liability until they are amended, therefore they cannot in effect be wrong. If you can show that it should be a different date then a new decision can be made with the correct dates.

[ss002d6252]

Plus the agreemnt at 3 b states that he will take the resonsility for paying any council tax as may become due not that my landlord orders me to pay a set council tax!

 

That's between you and your landlord, you'd need to chase him yourself to enforce this clause.

 

There is also the situation to consider of being classified as homeless officially and under the direction of an eviction for the dates mentioned. Does that make any difference at all or are the homeless now responsible for any councils demand for money?

Makes no difference - council tax liability is determined solely under council tax legislation. If other legislation has different determinations under the same circumstances then that is purely within the effect of that other legislation only.

[ss002d6252]

I did not vacate. I was under an eviction order from the court and considered homeless by the council itself! until i was rehoused by them on the 14th august2017, from the eviction date I am surely not liable for council tax?

 

Doesn't in itself matter that there was an eviction notice, what matters is purely how your situation fits within s6 of the LGFA 1992.

 

Instead of batting away at other issues the only that is relevant is your position in respect of liability at the property between 14th and 20th August 2017 (if I read your dates right). Holding a tenancy for another property makes no particular difference by itself but when did you leave the property and move in to the new property.

 

What date did your tenancy formally end and, at the point the tenancy ended, was in in a fixed term period, a fixed term that continued under a contractual agreement or a fixed term that had ended and become a statutory periodic.

[oldbag]

It would possibly be good to see someone take a case like that to the High Court to see in who's favour they would rule - I would be almost certain they wouldn't find against the legislation.

 

(I've just done a professional qualification in council tax law and haven't come across any cases where this has already been challenged)

 

If only one person lives in a property they will be the liable person. If more than one person lives there, a system called the hierarchy of liability is used to work out who is the liable person. The person at the top, or nearest to the top, of the hierarchy is the liable person. Two people at the same point of the hierarchy will both be liable.

 

The hierarchy of liability is:

1. a resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property

2. a resident tenant

3. a resident who lives in the property and who is a licensee. This means that they are not a tenant, but have permission to stay there

4. any resident living in the property, for example, a squatter

5. an owner of the property where no one is resident."

 

PLEASE CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY THIS LEGISLATION IS BEING IGNORED IN ORDER TO CHEAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OUT OF WHAT LITTLE MONEY THEY HAVE!

[ss002d6252]

Who pays Council Tax?

 

Normally the person who lives in a property will have to pay the Council Tax. The list below shows who should pay in order of responsibility (from top to bottom):

 

1. A resident freeholder
   
2. A resident leaseholder
   
3. A resident statutory or secure tenant
   
4. A resident licensee
   
5. Someone who lives in the property with no security of tenure
   
6. The owner (the person entitled to legal possession)
   

For example:

 

• If there is no resident freeholder (1) then the resident leaseholder (2) will be liable. If there is no resident freeholder (1) nor a resident leaseholder (2) then the resident tenant (3) will be liable to pay etc. until the liable person is determined.
  
• IF MY LANDLORD LIVED IN THE PROPERTY AS RESIDENT THEN HE IS LIABLE FOR ALL COUNCIL TAX ISN'T HE? my landlord keeps flat 4 for himself and his wife and his wife is owner.
  

 

The summary of s6(2) of the LGFA 1992 misses out far too much to be of particular use in your case - it helps in simple cases but that is only 1 part of s6, s6(2) cannot be read in isolation, to do so will not deal correctly with the issue at hand.

 

He did not live in your property - for council tax purposes the property you were occupying was banded as an individual dwelling for council tax purposes. Any determination can only be made in respect of that individual dwelling, what happens in the rest of the property does not matter (this particular point goes far beyond s6 of the LGFA 1992 - there's numerous bits of legislation which would need looked at argue that decision).

 

Quite simply , what you have posted so far does not give enough to provide an answer with (see post #16).

 

 

(I've just done a professional qualification in council tax law and haven't come across any cases where this has already been challenged)

 

IRRV course ?

[oldbag]

i MOVED IN TO THE NEW PROPERTY WHEN I WAS GIVEN THE KEYS ON THE 14TH AUGUST 2017. THE TENANCY FORMALLY ENDED ON 2ND FEBRUARY 2017 BEFORE THE FLAT WAS RE-EVALUATED BY THE COUNCIL. IT WAS NOT LEASEHOLD AND I WAS A SHORT HOLD ASSURED TENANT in a statutory periodic I think as only an assured shorthold from 1999 can be so I was told at shelter.

 

If tenancy agreements - when they start , and when they stop make no difference surely the council is in the dangerous position of being able to dictate and demand to anyone anywhere that they owe council tax on another property whether they were resident in that property or not .Isn't that a mockery?

 

I do not know if the eviction order formally makes me having left the property, if it does then I was already evicted when they re-classified the property.

[oldbag]

Not me myself, I just copied and posted some information I thought would be pertinent.

[oldbag]

But I did not own the flat as in being a leaseholder or with a freehold mortgage. I am simply a shorthold tenant, surely that classification puts me at number 3 - tenant.

[oldbag]

What of the legislation as regarding the tenancy agreement? Is that overridden by the council? When the tenancy agreement directly relates that the landlord will pay any council tax and accepts such as part of the rent why does the law suddenly not apply? The landlord is not saying that he setting the rate of that council tax, only that he agrees to pay the sum relating to the flat he is renting out.

[oldbag]

Please would you post here a link to post #16 as I do not know to what you refer. I have no link. Thanks

[ss002d6252]

If tenancy agreements - when they start , and when they stop make no difference surely the council is in the dangerous position of being able to dictate and demand to anyone anywhere that they owe council tax on another property whether they were resident in that property or not .Isn't that a mockery?

Not really, they just have to be read alongside council tax legislation. Council Tax legislation covers numerous situations including those where no tenancy agreement is held.

 

But I did not own the flat as in being a leaseholder or with a freehold mortgage. I am simply a shorthold tenant, surely that classification puts me at number 3 - tenant.

If only it was that simple - that applies only whilst you are resident (resident has a specific council tax definition)

 

 

If it had lapsed in to a statutory periodic tenancy then s6(1), (2), (5) and (6) of the LGFA 1992 apply. As reiterated in the Court of Appeal case of Leeds CC v Broadley this means that a tenant in a statutory periodic tenancy cannot be liable for the council tax charge once they cease being resident in the property (although they may still retain rent liability, that is due to the different legislation which applies). They would not be the first council to get it wrong over the different tenancy types and how they interact.

[oldbag]

It mentions the word council tax and the promise to pay it in the wording, how much more plain can it get?