Jump to content


Harringay Littering Fine


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 146 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Dear all, 

Can you please advise if I should be paying this fine as I find it very unfair.

We ordered and received a 2 sq metre piece of slate for the house on the 14 September 2023.

The delivery guys said he can only deliver to the kerb.

Once I received delivery I noticed how heavy it was so the driver and I manage to lean it on my outside wall until I received more help from my partner to carry in the house. The slate and pallet was not left outside my house for longer that 2 hours max and removed by us also within those 2 hours.

On the 29th September 2023, I received a FPN for the amount of £150 for littering😤 with 14 days to pay…

Can you please advise if I should be paying this fine.. and is there any real way to appeal as it is their word against mine. 
 

Can I not legally place a pallet outside my house for a few hours? 
 

Any help will be very much appreciated.

 

 

Littering PCN.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites

What did you do while you were waiting for help?

Did you stay there next to it? Did you leave any message on it to say belong to and how long it would be there?

And who was the fixed penalty notice address to?

How does anybody know that it was you?

Link to post
Share on other sites

next time please use pdf merge websites instead of putting up single pages

read upload.

done it for you

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, make sure that whatever you do you meet the timescale imposed by the council. That's 14 days from the date of the FPN (21st September) not from the date you received it. So you need to get any response to the council by next Thursday - to be on the safe side get it to them before the end of Wednesday 4th October. If you miss that they are entitled to immediately issue a summons and prosecute you in the Magistrates court.

You can make 'Representations' to the council  - the link to the webpage is in the letter.  If they accept your 'Representations' they can withdraw the FPN. Draft what you would like to say and post it up here (with all identifying information hidden) and people here can advise on it.

If they don't accept your Representations but you want to contest it in court you will still have the opportunity to do that.

You say "it is their word against mine" but I'm not sure that's correct. The alleged offence is "Unlawfully deposited wooden pallet on the pavement". It isn't really in dispute that the pallet was on the pavement and nor do you dispute that it was yours. The photo clearly shows it outside a house, which I assume is yours. BankFodder has asked how they knew it was your pallet?  Did they come to your door and ask you? Or was your name/address attached to the pallet? If you've admitted to them that the pallet is yours it isn't "their word against mine". 

But you have scope to argue 'extenuating circumstances', eg it was a significant extenuating circumstance that you had contracted to have it delivered to your front door but the delivery company left it on the pavement and it was too heavy for you to move until help arrived 2 hours later, and that temporarily affected your ability to comply with the law.

You were unlucky to get a council litter warden down your street so quickly after it arrived. In my London borough we're lucky if anyone from the council turns up for days even when we have reported fly-tipping.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you very much dx! Noted.

Dear Bank Fodder.

Thank you very much for your reply.

Apologies for missing some information.

The fixed penalty was addressed to me.

After it was delivered and I was waiting for help, I was keeping a eye on it from my window. Two guys wearing Haringey T-shirts just showed up looking at the pallet.

I went outside to let them know that the pallet and its contents would not be staying there long and I was awaiting help to remove it. They asked for my name, which I gave.

I asked what this was about but they refused to answer and said they would send a letter.

As said before. the pallet and its contents were moved less than a hour later, the pallet was placed in my front garden and taken to the recycling center two days later.

Thank you again for your reply.

Mark

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think your chances of success depend on the wording of the statute and how a court might relate them to your alleged offence. Section 87(1) of the Environmental Protection Act says this:

“A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.”

I think there are two things to consider. Firstly, were your materials “litter”? The term is not defined in the legislation (only to say that it includes cigarette ends and chewing gum). I think it would be a bit of a stretch to say that the materials (for which I imagined you paid a tidy sum) constituted “litter”. Secondly, whether you “left” it. It is quite clear that you had no intention of leaving it there permanently and I assume you can produce evidence that it was moved after a couple of hours. There’s also the question whether you or the delivery driver “left” it but, from your description, I suspect that is an argument you’d probably lose.

The notice says that although you have no right of appeal against the fixed penalty, the Council will consider “representations”. I suggest you do that in the first instance. If the turn that down, they will issue court proceedings and you will have to face a trial. I would not get hung up on the threats of a £50k fine and imprisonment. That applies only to the fly-tipping offence. The maximum fine for littering is £2,500, but in practice, if you are convicted, any fine would be income-related. However you will also pay a “Victim Surcharge” (40% of the fine) and a contribution to the Council’s costs.

Personally I believe the Council wallah is using legislation clearly for a purpose for which it was not intended.
 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ethel,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I will take your advice and make representations to the council as I feel I have extenuating circumstances, although I did know that the delivery was to the kerb.

Thanks for your support.

Mark

 

Hi Man In the Middle,

Thank you for your reply.

You are correct, the pallet contained an expensive slate hearth so definitely not classified as litter!

I will include in my representation to the council.

Thank you for reassuring me that I will likely not go to prison for this!

Thanks again

Mark

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please don't make any communications with them yet but standby for a response tomorrow morning.

I think it is entirely possible to argue that you haven't committed the offence

Please can you tell us the name of the company you were dealing with .

Can you describe how the consignment was removed from the lorry onto the pavement and then left there. Step by step please

???

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good Evening BankFodder.

Unfortunatly, I sent my request for representation last night right after my last post and only saw your message this morning.

I will wait and see what they reply.

But to answer your questions. The delivery company is called T P N Dagenham. They called the day before to arrange delivery date.

When the consignment arrived, the driver removed it from his van with a pallet truck. He was about to leave it in the road by the kerb but I though it didn't look safe keeping it there, so I asked him if he could bring it closer to the house.

He agreed and had to find a slope in the kerb before getting it on to the pavement. Now on the pavement, he was going to leave it flat on the ground, which would have been even more of a hazard.

I asked him to help me lift it vertically on the wall, which he did.

Thank you again for your help, sorry I went so quckly with my reply to Haringey Council. Just wanted to get it over with. 

Mark

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I think you have prejudiced your chances severely.  By wanting to get it over with, I expect that you have probably lost your FPN money because these councils are not in the business particularly of listening to some stories. They're not even really interested in litter – it's all about revenue collection.
I hope I'm wrong – but I doubt it.
 

I asked you the name of the delivery company but in fact I suppose I really want to know the name of the supplier of this item? Please can you let us know that.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure that the OP had prejudiced his case.

I think it is incumbent on him to take advantage of the "representation" facility the council provides. The questions for a court would be (a) was this item "litter" and (b) was it "left". Both these questions would have to be answered in the affirmative for a court to convict. I think when deliberating they would be interested in the Council's view of those questions.

Parliament's intention with the littering law was to prevent litter being deposited and left. I cannot see a court defining building materials as "litter". A flavour for that definition is actually in the legislation itself when it says it includes cigarette ends and chewing gum. DEFRA issued guidance on the definition of litter some time back which says:

 ‘Litter is best defined as something which is improperly discarded by members of the public in an area. It includes sweet wrappers, drinks containers, cigarette ends, gum, apple cores, fast food packaging, till receipts, small bags … ’

It goes onto say: ‘Litter is something, more often than not, synthetic, which is improperly discarded by the public whilst sitting, walking, or travelling through an area.’

The guidance makes a clear distinction between littering and fly tipping:

"Litter can be as small as a sweet paper or a bag of rubbish or lots of items scattered about. A black refuse sack and/or greater amounts are considered to be fly-tipping, but the distinction may vary between local authorities, particularly if there are aggravating circumstances."

It is clear from this guidance that the emphasis rests on "discarding" unwanted material. These items were not discarded and they were not unwanted. They were simply left there for a short time until they could be safely removed.

From the OP's description I also cannot see a court agreeing that it was "left". It may be that it caused an obstruction for a short time but then a prosecutor should consider whether it is in the public interest to prosecute.such a minor transgression. I couldn't form an opinion because I haven't looked - principally because that is not what is alleged.

I often see building materials that have been delivered to the pavement or roadside which are there for a short time until they are moved. Nobody in their right mind would consider those materials to be litter. I think an over-zealous (or poorly trained) council official has used entirely the wrong legislation to allege an offence when, in all probability it is unlikely that any offence has been committed at all.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that you have completely overlooked a fundamental element of the offence

Link to post
Share on other sites

No. I don't think it is that

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Mark71 said:

Unfortunatly, I sent my request for representation last night right after my last post and only saw your message this morning.

I will wait and see what they reply.

 

The 14 days isn't up yet so you have time to submit a revised Representation if you submit it by tomorrow. You can address in that the issues of whether any offence has actually been committed, and also, if the council conclude that, in their opinion, an offence has been committed, the extenuating circunstances.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm afraid that I think he has gone off on his own and doing his own thing. We will see if he comes back in time

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hi Everyone,

Thank your all for your input.

Please see below the representation letter I sent to Haringey Council on Sunday.

"Dear Sir / Madam,

 

I would like to make a representation regarding the above FPN.

On the 14th September 2023, I received delivery of a pallet containing a slate hearth. The delivery was made at 13.09. I had not realised until receipt that the item would weigh over a 100 kilos and the delivery driver was only able to deliver to the kerb. 

The driver helped me to move the pallet and its contents to the outside wall of my property (as shown in your pictures). As it was too heavy for me to move alone, I called a friend to help me move the item. My aid arrived at 14.15 on the same day, when we moved the contents of the delivery to my home and the pallet to the front garden, where it remained until Saturday 16th September, when it was broken down and taken to the Haringey recycling centre.

While waiting for help to arrive, I was keeping an eye on the item from my window, when two men wearing Haringey polo shirts appeared.

I could see that they were interested in the pallet and its contents, so I went outside to explain my situation. They asked my name, which I gave freely. When I asked if there was a problem, I was told that they would send a letter.

My request for representations is based on two points 1) I reject the idea that the materials bought qualify as litter and 2) the items were never intended to be left there, which was made clear to the two representatives of Haringey council. The item in question only remained in the location shown in your picture for roughly an hour and a half.

Can you please reconsider your penalty charge?

Thank you and best regards"

I am hoping my representation will be enough for them to dismiss the penalty. If you think it is not and I should make a revised Representation, please let me know what to say.

If I do not get a response from Haringey Council by Thursday, should I pay the fine?

Thanks again.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it's a real shame that you rushed off without paying attention to the whole of the discussion.

The fundamental element that you missed in my view is that even if there was an offence, it wasn't committed by you. It was committed by the delivery driver.

From the description that is clear enough.

According to you the delivery driver unloaded it and left on the pavement and was just going to leave it there to obstruct the passage and re-passage of the public footway. You then intervened and told the delivery driver that at least if it was going to be left that it should be left out of the way and you helped him to move it to your front wall.
By sending the letter that you have done – you have pretty well put your hands up to being the person who left it on the pavement. I think your strongest argument is that it wasn't you and that the offence was committed by somebody else.

You should have then given the name of the delivery company.
Your position would also have been that you were aware that the delivery driver was going to leave the consignment on the pavement and in fact you attempted to mitigate the problem and to prevent the "leaving" by helping the driver move it against the wall. Presumably you asked him to move it onto your property and he refused.

The delivery driver is clearly the one who is responsible for the littering – if that's what it was – and it is the delivery driver or his company which should be responsible for the FPN.

It seems to me absolutely that this is what happened – but if there is any room for doubt there is sufficient ambiguity that they should rule in your favour. Criminal responsibility is not made on ambiguities. The facts or the interpretation of the facts must always favour the person who is liable for the criminal penalty. If you are guilty then you must be guilty beyond doubt.
If this went to a magistracy, I'm quite convinced that that they would accept that in all likelihood you weren't the person responsible and that in fact you tried to ameliorate the situation and that this would result in a not guilty verdict.
If there was a guilty verdict then that would be the moment when you would then turn to your extenuating circumstances in order to try and mitigate the situation.

I don't know the time limit for bringing these kinds of actions or issuing fixed penalty notices – I expect there is. And that means that the council should have issued the fixed penalty notice to the delivery company but they are probably out of time – and that's their problem.

This would have been the most powerful argument you could have advanced.

Once again, it's a shame that you rushed off without allowing things to finish. I don't really understand why you were in such a hurry to go.



I see that you have been with us since 2006.

Since then we have helped you on five occasions and although we have gone out of our way to give you every assistance, you have never come back and told us what the results of our efforts to help you have been

2007 – bank charges – no update
2010 – speed awareness course – no update

2017 – parking problem no update
2018 – redundancy problem no update
2021 – parking problem no update

we are always pleased to support you and we make a lot of effort to help people who come to us with these kinds of problems and in particular where they are subject to unreasonable treatment or corporate bullying.
However we do appreciate having a bit of feedback to find out how useful our advice has been.

This helps us to do a better job and also it informs other people with similar problems who come across your stories.

And just a final word – lots of people do this, not only you – and it is very frustrating for the site team who are all volunteers and who would gain a little bit of satisfaction from knowing that there had been a successful outcome as a result of their efforts.

 




 

 

I hope you will give us an update on this one. If you decide to go to the Magistrate's Court then let us know. We will help you put something together.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

The fundamental element that you missed in my view is that even if there was an offence, it wasn't committed by you. 

Ah, we got there!  😀

I had an idea that was what you were referring to. I did touch briefly on it earlier. I was going on this:

Quote

"Once I received delivery I noticed how heavy it was so the driver and I manage to lean it on my outside wall..."

It is quite clear from that, that the OP was responsible for moving the slate from where the driver was going to leave it to where it was seen by the council officials. It may have been that the same offence would have been alleged if it had been seen in their original position, but it was not. It is at least arguable that he deposited it and I suspect it is an argument that may go against him. However, I think far more pertinent than that is the officials' definition of "litter".

But reading through again, one thing concerns me: the council officer's statement only mentions a pallet. I had (wrongly) assumed that both the slate and the pallet had been moved together. But there is no mention of the slate. So where was the pallet in relation to the slate? If it was just the pallet that had caught the officers' attention it could well be that the delivery driver was solely responsible for leaving it. I still find it difficult to believe that a court would see a pallet as "litter" but it does put a different slant on things. Perhaps the OP can help us.

Edited by Man in the middle
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...