Smart Meters...Discussion

[tobyjugg2]

broken link?

 

For the second pair I added the google link in time just use the second of the pair.

Some issue with pasting the direct links

 

2nd link is 7yrs old

its changed since that consultative doc

 

Yes DX, but I re-iterate - we are talking about guidelines etc and NPowers track record with existing requirements let alone something like an Npower drone flipping the wrong button.

 

The point of that post was to show that even the gov knows they can switch em off - its what they are intended to do - control.

 

oh and the early trials of smart meters was 30 some years ago - I was there.

(analysing the data not installing)

[dx100uk]

so what they can switch the electric off

what do you expect them to do

waste money in installing a smart meter to only have some tit not pay their bill and have to rip it out and fit a card/key meter..??

 

 

what planet you on..

[tobyjugg2]

so what they can switch the electric off

what do you expect them to do

waste money in installing a smart meter to only have some tit not pay their bill and have to rip it out and fit a card/key meter..??

 

 

what planet you on..

 

The one where companies like Npower could have the power to effortlessly switch it off when all thats gone wrong is THEIR incompetence

Read some of the npower issues here at CAG

 

Gas

https://www.thestreet.com/story/11128757/1/elster-launches-remote-shut-off-valve-for-ac-250-residential-gas-meters.html

 

http://sensus.com/products/rgs-10-remote-gas-shutoff/

 

https://www.wired.com/2010/03/smart-grids-done-smartly/

 

 

[dx100uk]

oh TJ

stop Gerrymunguring..

 

 

yes we all know that stuff is out there and we all know some companies can be poor and make mistakes

but theres no good keep running away from the future just 'because' something or someone makes a mistake..

concentrate on stopping those mistakes being allowed to happen.

 

 

other than by some form of 'error' however it is caused

99% of smartmeter users see either no change in their bills or if they use it properly a saving in their bills

I certainly did.

std meters go wrong as well. to the same or greater rates

 

 

my meters gone to 3kw why such a high level of electric at xx time

oh the daughters got her hair dryer running to heat the room with her window open cause she wants dope smoke out the open window..example

 

 

same with the gas why is it so high at this moment

oh the stats been turned up because someone is cold in their room with the windows open.

cant see that without a smart meter

 

 

ive had like sounds you have the owl system for god 10yrs now

and it alerts me via the PC USB module by alarm that more than XXKW has been used for XXmins

 

 

god I wish id had that with my gas meter...now I have.

[tobyjugg2]

other than by some form of 'error' however it is caused

99% of smartmeter users see either no change in their bills or if they use it properly a saving in their bills

I certainly did.

 

Unless you got a special cheaper smart meter tariff, that is only your looking - which as I pointed out - I do with a free little bit of hardware I got from a supplier years ago - shows me what energy I am using

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10613535/Energy-giants-call-for-review-of-smart-meter-roll-out-to-save-consumers-1.8bn.html

 

 

 

The extra cost is the cost of rolling out these meters which WILL be (already is) added to your energy costs, and mine even though I dont want one. Read here for cost benefit fiddle from the horses mouth.

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/19/feature_uk_gov_power_meter_plan/

 

my meters gone to 3kw why such a high level of electric at xx time

oh the daughters got her hair dryer running to heat the room with her window open cause she wants dope smoke out the open window..example

 

Yes my little box shows me the usage - You still have to go and find what it is unless your daughter uses a smart hair drier which also reports itself back.

 

 

I'm happy that you like yours and are happy with it.

 

Now understand my issues without throwing asinine flames about what planet and tin foil, hats etc, particularly as being here YOU should be VERY aware of the very real issues many people have with companies like Npower, and how hard it is to get them resolved - without giving them more control over your life.

 

Read the cost benefit takedown and understand that these smart meters might give you a little toy - that you could have anyway - but their main reason for being is the ability to monitor and switch off your energy at THEIR will whether you want them to or not. That is NOT tin foil - that is the REAL and stated benefits that drive the rollout - NOT that you can see that somebody is using electricity in the house somewhere

- which you could easily do with a little bit of hardware that they gave away free some years ago which does not have the external control and external monitoring capability and does not add vast sums to the overall energy cost to EVERY customer.

 

 

Like I've already shown - dont take my word for it - take it from the horses mouth:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10613535/Energy-giants-call-for-review-of-smart-meter-roll-out-to-save-consumers-1.8bn.html

"Ross Anderson, professor of security engineering at the University of Cambridge's Computer Laboratory, has written [PDF] about the privacy and security issues of smart metering in the past. But he says: “There are many other systems whose privacy aspects worry me more. The main problem about smart metering is that it won't save energy and so it's a colossal waste of money.”"

[tobyjugg2]

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/energy-monitors/article/energy-monitors-explained

 

I got one of these sort of things free years ago when the energy companies were required to offer them.

 

I'm no technophobe in fact most of my working career has been in implementing new systems.

 

Worth a read

https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2009/09/humm-energy-monitor-set-up-part-1/

[dx100uk]

that's the one ive got - which link

wish I could tap into the gas data

 

and still me old owl system too

[Surfer01]

and apologies to everyone in advance, but I just cant resist

and who wants the CIA killing you via remote control of your meter ? (switch the gas on then flip the leccy on and off till it go BOOOM)

ooops thought Vlad the Putin was visiting you Mr Farage. What do you mean your name isnt Farage?

See the conspiracy thread

 

On a more serious note and a point I've made before,

WHO wants people like NPower or Scottish Power with the power to just switch off your gas and electric at the click of a key-press 100 miles away when THEY make a mistake?

 

That would be very irresponsible as the customer may be using life supporting medical equipment so unlikely to happen. Besides the supplier is obliged to send several letters first and then get a warrant from a magistrates court which needs to be shown to the householder when the meter operator disconnects.

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

After our experience with SSE and never a late payment, I would not trust a utility company that has meter remotely controlled. Got rid of SSE after that debacle, but they would not back down for over six months, amongst other things they were insisting we had a smart installed for our own peace of mind. I have informed (in writing, recorded delivery) our new provider that a smart meter will never be installed here. they have acknowledged this in writing. There are only two of us, so don't have to worry about wayward teenagers, hairdryers and open windows.

 

Please pass me my tin foil hat.

[Sparks_]

People who have a key meter can not have a smart meter? You would think they would have one that accepts keys!

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

Ah, so if you have key meter, you don't top up, no leccy.

 

So why can't they send an impulse remotely and chop of a smart meter? I know there is legal argument on how it should be done , but what if some one had an itchy and pressed the wrong button and cut you off?

 

Are the smart meters routed through your broadband to be controlled by wi fi? Is it like the Sky Box? We were always told to keep it plugged into the phone line, but that is another story for another thread.

[tobyjugg2]

see up the thread Mrs Hobbit,

Abstract—We’re about to acquire a significant new cyber-vulnerability. The world’s energy utilities are starting to install hundreds of millions of ‘smart meters’ which contain a remote off switch.

 

Its main purpose is to ensure that customers who default on their payments can be switched remotely to a prepay tariff;

 

secondary purposes include supporting interruptible tariffs and implementing rolling power cuts at times of supply shortage

 

[/i]

 

 

Now if those smart meters delivered a short sharp shock to those kids abusing your energy bills (and temporarily disabled the childline number on the telephone) that would be a different matter.

 

The original ones used modems and telephone lines, but the new ones effectively have a mobile phone built in despite some recommendations that they transfer the data over the power lines.

[Old Cogger]

just a though Smart Meters? well if that is the case they will still hold the argument daily charge for meter reading of course they say maintenance as well cop out?????

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

Ah, so that answers my question then; so you are also paying for the call when the smart meter rings home, or home contacts the smart meter. I wonder what the charges are for these calls? you can bet the utility company isn't paying for it, same as Sky gathering info from the Sky box, hence keeping the box plugged into the phone line, something we never did.

[tobyjugg2]

People who have a key meter can not have a smart meter? You would think they would have one that accepts keys!

 

According to the specs you can, you ring up the supplier and pay, or buy a token at a shop (like credit on a mobile or a keycard payment) and ring up and pay with the token. Not sure how well these options have been implemented though.

 

Ah, so that answers my question then; so you are also paying for the call when the smart meter rings home, or home contacts the smart meter. I wonder what the charges are for these calls? you can bet the utility company isn't paying for it, same as Sky gathering info from the Sky box, hence keeping the box plugged into the phone line, something we never did.

They effectively little mobiles built in with their own connection so they dont use your telephone lines.

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

I realise they don't use our phone lines, but someone is paying the call home...you can bet it is the consumer.

[tobyjugg2]

Its interesting thinking back to the trials 30 years ago with both end consumers and high voltage consumers. As it has been that long :

 

They were 'sold' that they would get cheaper electricity and that in return, in an emergency situation like earthquakes etc, we would be able to shut of their electricity temporarily, and we (and they) would be able to see what was used when to enable better planning and management of the network. Which is not a lie.

 

End customers were told that their fridges and freezers would keep for hours and anyway - as it would only be in the case of emergencies TV would be the last of the things they would be dealing with, and as an Earthquake or meteor strike was unlikely, they would effectively getting cheaper electricity for nothing...

significant for businesses with large bills - as long as they never actually got shut off - where a single instance would probably cost them more than a whole years savings at least.

 

So its always been sold on 'less than the whole truth'

[tobyjugg2]

I realise they don't use our phone lines, but someone is paying the call home...you can bet it is the consumer.

 

yes and the £11B to roll them out (yes 11 billion pounds).

 

The equipment is rumored to cost around £200 per dual fuel household.

 

and you are quite right Mrs Hobbit - we the plebiscite will be (already are) paying for it.

 

Where is the cost benefit analysis?

Why do the savings to the energy companies not pay for it?

[tobyjugg2]

Ok. it seems there is little real knowledge of the ins and outs of smart metering outside the presented smoke screens - errr headlines - of reduce your bills 'cause you can seen the smart meter screen (actually the customer display is optional) when your total usage seems high.

 

No tin hat stuff here - all solid fact

 

 

First

How many people, once the novelty has worn off are going to sit there watching the smartmeters customer display and harass the kids/other half about running the hair drier too long, rather than the TV, all to save about 2 quid a month?

 

I will justify the figures, and I'll use the EU hating Tory loving Telegraph article as the basis although I will challenge a few of the figures - including the Telegraphs over stated smartmeter likely cost overrun estimate even though it goes against my position)

 

For starters some links

The telegraphs articles

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/energy-bills/11119411/Will-a-smart-meter-save-me-money.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/11456193/Energy-smart-meter-roll-out-may-be-costly-failure-MPs-warn.html

 

Some Gov stuff (probably wont refer this much unless someone else does - we'll see)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/smart-meter-roll-out-gb-cost-benefit-analysis

 

The EU's position (to prove the lie that its all the EU's fault)

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/568318/EPRS_BRI(2015)568318_EN.pdf

 

 

 

I trust we have already proven here that

 

* These meters can switch off your supply (gas and electric) or made into prepays on the fly remotely whether you want it or not at the press of a key

 

* That any energy/bill saving as it stands (more on the next steps to come) are based on you watching the display and then sorting out yourself what is using what its showing you.

Which a very cheap non- reporting, non switch of non smartmeter monitor can do.

 

 

Ok what are the projected customer savings if customer x sits watching the meter display and harasses the kids and their hair drying?

 

From the Telegraph article. and its a reasonable figure backed up in many other places :

"consumers will save just £23 a year on the average energy bill by 2020"

So 2 quid a month for your efforts.

Yes it might be more to start with, and some currently wasteful folk will benefit a lot more, BUT you could do that with the very cheap monitors as we have already shown.

 

 

 

OK so what will it cost?

 

Around 11-12 BILLION pounds is projected for the project as the Telegraph reports;

The Telegraph also states ""If smart meters come in at, say, four times the forecast figures, that is £2,000 per consumer, it is simply not affordable."

 

Now we all know these projects over-run and this one would, but its unlikely (but perhaps possible) to be 4x cost over-run.

I think a 1.5 to 2x over-run is far more realistic.

SO overall cost could be 18 - 24 billion pounds or about £1000 pounds added to the energy costs per customer (possibly around £125 a year on the bills)

 

 

 

OK a grand added to my Energy bills over that period - say again what my benefits will be?

 

1-2 pounds a month on average. " consumers will save just £23 a year on the average energy bill by 2020."

 

 

 

But the Telegraph states "We only need to install smart meters to satisfy the EU."

 

Not true (whether we leave the EU or not)

From the EU document linked above:

"Smart electricity grids and metering feature prominently in the recent Communication by the European Commission on a New Deal for Energy Consumers, part of the Summer Energy Package and linked to the broader Energy Union strategy. The Commission will continue to monitor the roll-out of smart metering in Member States where this has been approved (by the member states - TJ comment).

It has asked Member States not opting for large-scale roll-out to review the critical parameters and assumptions used in their CBAs, and for the Member States that have not produced CBAs or announced roll-out plans to do so swiftly. While continuing to strongly support the large-scale deployment of smart electricity meters, the Commission now places rather less emphasis on smart gas metering, especially as a majority of the CBAs on smart gas metering proved negative or inconclusive.

 

 

So what are the real benefits?

 

The real current benefits is that

* smart meters give real time readings and reduce meter reading and estimation costs to the companies

- despite existing meter reading costs having fallen dramatically in real terms since the projects were proposed

 

* the companies can remotely disconnect or change to (higher cost) prepayment tariffs at the flip of a remote button.

 

 

 

Hold on - I've never missed paying my bills and in fact am pretty much always significantly in credit with these shysters

Yep - they are charging everyone to make it easier for them to disconnect or prepay the relatively few folk who end up in debt due to the energy companies profiteering..

and dont expect them to change the practice of keeping you well in credit with them despite them having your actual usage to the hour.

 

 

OK so whats this all about really - it surely cant be just more easily slapping the poor folk who are in difficulties

Quite true, although they are happy with you paying for that.Remember economy 7? Cheaper energy if you used it at off peak times?

Well in addition to switching customers off if necessary at peak times (or whenever), which would be political dynamite until we are a true dictatorship:

 

Smart meters enable PEAK time billing tarrifs

Want to put the kettle on when the half time Coro adverts come on?

Want to have your evening meal with the fanily when most others in the country do?

Want to use the kitchen for breakfast when most people do?

Want to have your shower/bath on Friday just before you go out like millions of others?

 

I'm afraid they are all peak time usage, which costs a lot more to supply, so 'justifiably' should cost a lot more to use at those times.

 

Peak time tariffs is the near future for smartmeters.

 

The slightly further future will include appliances like Fridges and freezers that can be remotly managed and put into low power mode or switched off at peak periods.

BUT You could do that with simple timer switches of course

 

 

 

Suggested better use for the 12-24 billion pounds, which would genuinely benefit the country, customers, industry and the planets health, including EU green energy and carbon requirements

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/06/swansea-bay-tidal-lagoon-power-planned

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/11445579/Cardiff-tidal-energy-lagoon-could-power-every-home-in-Wales.html

[tobyjugg2]

so in summary

* £23 a year average customer saving

* £125 a year increased customer cost whether you benefit/use or not

* Introduction of peak time high cost tarrifs

* Npower/Scottish power with the power to instantly switch you off when they make one of their many many many mistakes - probably even if you aren't their customer

[Guest]

and, how do smart meters' info reflect onto utility databases such as ecoes for eg. if at all.

[tobyjugg2]

and, how do smart meters' info reflect onto utility databases such as ecoes for eg. if at all.

 

I dont understand the question (or statement) Ford

[Guest]

I dont understand the question (or statement) Ford

it was a bit vague

 

databases such as ECOES record certain user/supplier info etc

 

just wondered whether smart meters info wld, if at all, also be auto inputted onto such databases

[tobyjugg2]

it was a bit vague

 

databases such as ECOES record certain user/supplier info etc

 

just wondered whether smart meters info wld, if at all, also be auto inputted onto such databases

 

Ah - OK - Yes ECOES is smart meter ready.

 

 

Depending on the final chosen technical solutions, building upon ECOES may:

 Reduce costs;

 Reduce Smart Metering implementation risks;

 Adopt tried and tested solutions; and

 Provide adaptable, responsive and scalable services that can meet the data and communication requirements of a Smart Metering Environment.

 

and lets not forget the thread this came from

- sharing/use of personal data UNLESS YOU SPECIFICALLY OPT OUT

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?474970-First-Utility-giving-out-my-personal-details-to-a-3rd-Party&p=5007594#post5007594

[tobyjugg2]

Lets look on the 'upside' for the customer

 

Assuming that when the suppliers implement the peak time/Time of Use tariffs, they also implement lower cost periods not just higher cost periods (yeh right)

 

and the customer has purchased all new electical items eg

Smart Fridge

Smart Freezer

Smart Boiler electronics and Smart boiler pumps

Smart dimmable lighting

Smart hair driers

Smart kettles

et etc etc

 

and that the software in those smart devices is able to 'talk' to the smart meter to get by the minute (second?) tariff costs and understand and react to them

 

You might be able to avoid paying too many of the peak tariff penalty charges and maybe even benefit from any lower tariffs if any are made available....

 

But I'm afraid if you want to watch Coro as it airs (BBC beware) rather than 'off peak' on catch up - pay up

 

Trouble is , if/when enough people shift their usage - the peak charge periods move.

Lets play chase the cheap electricity time.