Parking Eye £100 PCN 10 minute overstay. Two Saints, Lancs, **WON AT POPLA**

[Anniemaniac]

Thanks. Have sent an appeal (with my address added). Will update when I hear anything.

[Anniemaniac]

Hi guys.

 

Sent in my appeal to them using their online appeal service.

I gave them my name and details and reason for appeal.

 

Heard nothing until today when I received a PCN, addressed this time to me not my mother, for the same event.

 

They have not responded to my appeal but have clearly received it because they have taken info from my appeal to send me this PCN

 

where do I go from here?

I'm assuming this means they've rejected the appeal.

 

However, I have had no correspondence re: the appeal to say if it was successful or not.

All I've heard from them is this new PCN addressed to me.

 

Do I have to appeal a second time?

It will literally be the exact same appeal if I do

 

. Do I wait to hear correspondence specifically about the appeal?

[dx100uk]

Appeal by letter

[ericsbrother]

they have taken the letter as just a notifiaction of who the driver was at the time. You can now appeal in that capacity. if they continue to contact your mother you can complain to the BPA about this breach of not only their code of conduct but the law as well and ask what are they going to do about it

[Anniemaniac]

Another update.

 

So I didn't have time to appeal by letter because today I've received another letter stating that my appeal was unsuccessful. They gave no grounds for why it was unsuccessful, drawing no attention whatsoever to my reason given in my appeal regarding a 10 minute grace period as established by BPA of which they are a member, instead stating only that "no parking was purchased [...]" therefore I owe the charge. I've been given an additional 14 days grace period to pay the reduced amount of £60, or alternatively I can appeal to POPLA and they have provided a POPLA reference number.

 

On the back of the letter, they provide 6 "grounds for appeal" options:

1. My vehicle was stolen

2. I was not improperly parked

3. The amount requested on the parking charge is not correct

4. I was not the driver or registered keeper at the time of the alleged improper parking

5. Extreme circumstance prevented me from parking correctly

6. Other

 

Given my appeal would fall under 'other', is this even worth appealing to POPLA? Does any one know of POPLAs track record when it comes to appealing a charge because of a short overstay? Are they sympathetic to drivers or not? To be honest, I don't know why I'm even asking all this because I can't afford £60 regardless so I have no choice to appeal because even if I lose, I'd have had to pay the £100 anyway as the deadline for reduced payment is a week before I get any wages.

 

I'm just panicking a little because they state the "no ticket was purchased" thing. I'm almost certain you don't have to pay/obtain a ticket unless and until you've been there over an hour. I have a photo of one of the parking signs and from what I can tell, you don't have to get a ticket until you go over the free hour so this seems to literally be over the 10 minutes.

 

Given ParkingEye are a BPA member, and from my understanding, BPA have a rule stating drivers are given a 10 minute grace period, don't they have to conform to their rules? If not, what's the point in BPA having such rules or PE being a member if they don't have to follow them? Therefore, should PE not cancel this charge as it was on the 10 minute grace period? Can someone just confirm that what I've just said is correct, or if it's not, please correct my understanding of it so I know what to appeal with?

 

Also, my overstay was technically (based on time-stamped phots) 10 minutes 14 seconds, however PE only refer to my overstay being 10 minutes. Would POPLA reject my appeal due to being 14 seconds over the grace period? I mean, how strict are they? What bothers me is, a ticket would have only cost me £2. If they can make profit from £2 for an hour, how on EARTH can they possible justify £100 for 10 minutes?! How in the world did my being there 10 minutes cost them £100. It clearly didn't.

 

Sorry for the million questions and mini rant. I'm just fuming. I've got enough on my plate with mental health issues, being a full time carer for my mum, and working as well, without having to mess about appealing ridiculous charges over minuscule infractions!

Edited November 24, 2016 by Anniemaniac

[ericsbrother]

addressed to you?

The 10 minute period is a MINIMUM so 14 secs over this is essentially what they would be talking about.

they will have given you details of how to appeal to POPLA so you should.

 

 

The grounds will be that no breach of contract as specified by their claim occurred the mention no requirement to purchase ticket,

 

 

you put it to them to prove that you were parked for the full time claimed as the only recording of your visit that PE have is the time of enrty and exit and it is denied that there was any breach due to being PARKED for more than the prescribed time.

In any case the alleged overstay is de minimis and covered by the BPA's code of conduct for a grace period.

 

To answer your last point they only make money by rooking people for the £100 charges, the rest of the money goes to the landowner.

 

 

It is a funny business plan that relies on having no income from what you are supposed to do and then nmake your money by applying ridiculous charges to those who cause them no loss of income.

 

 

The highest court agreed with thsi though as the law is designed to make money go to money adn consumer contract legislation was thus overridden with a threat to parliament not to interfere with this decision.

[Anniemaniac]

EricsBrother - cheers! Apologies for the late reply, life got in the way.

 

I've appealed to POPLA so lets see where it takes us. Hopefully it'll be a success. And that's a damn near criminal business plan! Can't believe the hight court allow it.

[Anniemaniac]

Another update.

 

Just received an email from POPLA saying ParkingEye have responded.

Checked my appeal and all it says is that "the operator will send the evidence independently".

 

 

It says under the comments box where I can comment on their evidence that I have 7 days from the date they sent their evidence (today) to comment on anything.

 

I have not received any evidence or correspondence from Parking Eye at all but the date on the POPLA website is starting from today.

 

 

Obviously this means I now can't comment on anything until I see their evidence, which is going to leave me with less time and given it's Christmas, I may not even receive the evidence within the 7 days!

 

Is there anyway I can let POPLA know that I haven't received their evidence and that the 7 days shouldn't start until I confirm I have received it?

 

What a crafty little company though!

Clearly hoping I wont receive the evidence in time and won't think to do anything about it.

Really fed up with these crooks now.

 

ETA: They also have not provided a case summary - good sign or bad?

I'd personally have thought though that if they felt they had a decent case, they'd have put arguments down in the summary so the fact they haven't suggests they're playing their cards close because they don't think they have a winning hand yet? Maybe I'm just wishful thinking!

Edited December 8, 2016 by Anniemaniac

[dx100uk]

you don't have to abide by nor worry about any silly time scales.

 

 

they have NO LEGAL POWERS WHATSOEVER

[ericsbrother]

POPLA were instruted to run the appeals in a certian way by their paymasters the BPA so you the appellant dont get to see their documents and have the chance to comment on them.

 

this means that errors in matters of fact and errors in law are missed and often dont get raised until the motorist is taken to court on the flimsiest of reasons (and then wins).

 

This rather lazy method of running appeals emboldens the parking co's and denies justice to the motorist.

 

One day, someone with money will seek a judicial review of POPLA's activities and they will be absolutely stuffed.

 

The problem with this though is that the parking co's wont then want to have any sort of appeal mechanism as they know they will lose too many cases and it will cost them monet to run it properly.

 

That is why many fled to the less rigourous and decidedly dodgy IPC with their cheaper appeals that are really an kangaroo court and serve no-one any good.

[Anniemaniac]

Me again.

Phoned POPLA who instructed me to phone PE about case notes.

Turns out they were sent to junk mail.

 

I've got the case notes,

it's ridiculously long - 30+ pages which includes copies of both NTK letters I received (one in RK's name, one in drivers [my] name), a copy of my appeal, a copy of their rejection my appeal, along with 30+ pictures of signage and parking site layout.

 

They are now stating that my time in the car park was 1 hour, 10 minutes and 16 seconds.

Prior to receiving the case notes, they made no mention of the seconds apart from on the ANPR captures, stating in both NTKs that my stay was "1 hour 10 minutes". I cannot believe they are trying to actually justify £100 for 16 seconds!

 

What do I do from here?

I have already mentioned the time being de minimis in my original appeal to PE which they have repeatedly failed to address.

 

I feel like I'm going to lose this, all over 16 seconds.

How can that even apply?

My car clock could have been wrong!

Their ANPR clock could have been wrong!

Do I put it to POPLA to make them prove their clocks were correct?

Are people REALLY expected to time their stay right down to the very second?

Seriously?

 

My car doesn't even give me the seconds on the clock, just minutes.

Frustrated isn't the word here.

 

They have stated that they apply a grace period as a member of BPA and that they have permission from the land owner to operate on the site.

 

Advice please?

Really feeling like I'm going to lose if they're sticking to this 16 seconds bull.

 

Have read some information booklets produced by POPLA and in it they state appeals they have rejected where the appellant argued a tiny over stay of 1 minute past a grace period because they were still over the time limit.

 

If POPLA do reject my appeal, what are my options?

CAB? Trading Standards?

I am absolutely not paying £100 for 16 seoncs

but I can't afford to get a CCJ or debt as I'm being interviewed for a banking position and they will decline anyone with poor credit.

 

 

I plan to write to my MP as this was a former council operated car park but I doubt she'll do anything to get the charge removed.

Feeling absolutely lost at the minute.

 

"POPLA were instruted to run the appeals in a certian way by their paymasters the BPA so you the appellant dont get to see their documents and have the chance to comment on them. "

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly?

Are you saying there was no way to see the parking company's evidence and no way to comment on it?

Because there is a section on the POPLA website where you can comment on any of the documents the parking company has provided as evidence.

 

 

PE have sent me a 52 page document via email detailing their signage, letters sent, rejection of appeal, etc. and there is a box on POPLA on my appeal for me to write any comments in defense against their evidence if I want.

I have 7 days from the date PE sent me their case files to comment.

 

 

Hence, I need advice re: their claim of 16 seconds overstay.

 

 

I want to comment on it further because it seems ridiculous but I don't know what's best to argue against it.

 

 

As mentioned in my previous post,

are motorists honestly expected to time their stay to the very second?

Can I argue ANPR may not be correct and ask POPLA to force PE to prove it was correct at the time?

PE have also stated they have permission from the land owner to operate on that car park but have not provided proof of this;

should I mention this to POPLA and ask for proof to be provided?

[dx100uk]

you wont lose over 16secs

stop panicking...

[Anniemaniac]

Thanks DX100uk, sorry for panicking. I just cannot afford this so it's a big worry.

[dx100uk]

go re read post 31

 

 

dx

[Anniemaniac]

Update.

 

Thought I'd let you all know that my appeal was successful!

Thank you everyone for all your advice and for putting up with my overly anxious posts regarding the matter!

 

 

So relieved it's over and done with, but I'd have stood no chance without you guys so much appreciated!

[dx100uk]

thread title updated.

 

 

dx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Please help.

[honeybee13]

Well done to you and the people who advised you. I'm delighted for you.

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

Glad it is all over for you.

It is a shame that parking companies know they are in the wrong but still continue to try and get money out of the motorist up until the very last second and then incur costs for being stupid and greedy.

 

 

No doubt these additional costs will then be brought up in some other legal case as justifation for an increased charge they want to bring in as being "justifiable" and "not unconscionable".

 

a lot of the problems we get are due to the backgrounds of the people who become high court judges.

Very few of them have a background in criminal law,

 

 

especially on the prosecuting side and almost none of them have a scientific background and so they dont have a feel for what the common man is thinking or behaves like and make judgements that fly in the face of the laws of physics

 

 

as almost everything is seen through the eyes of a commercial lawyer so even contracts get viewed as though a sign has been read by lawyers to the motorist before someone parks their car.

 

 

These decisions are then dealt with at lower courts who are often part time judges and rarely have an area of expertise that matches the majority of what passes in front of them.

 

 

they then either have to read up a lot about the relevant law very quicky the night before a hearing or they rely on the papers in front of them to be truthful and relevant.

 

 

litigants in person raely have the experience to challenge suspect document bundles so the bigger players in this field tend to win claims that arent that solid or based on misrepresenting their position

 

It is quite easy for the parking co's to design a simple sign that hold all of the information needed for offer and consideration and what happens if you dont obey the signage along with the necessary permmissions to operate.

 

 

they dont because they want to save a few quid at the outset of the contract and then rely on confusion to chisel motorists for money that clear signage wouldnt ever generate..