UKCPS/? PCN nov 2015 Claimform - Driver-passengers observed leaving site - WEST QUAY RETAIL HULL

[dx100uk]

hehe don't give in

when is the hearing and when does your WS need to be with the court?

yes we'll help

[not that i'm any authority on parking matters nor legal matters but we'll get there]

dx

[Gily]

Hearing is on 17.10.16 and I have to send the WS by 3.10.16

The problem is I am going on holiday on 27.09 and coming back on 4.10

So I have to send them on Mon 26.09.16

[dx100uk]

I pers would not be delivering it till you get back

not a good idea to blink first...

its your local court to you..so only down the road you could deliver it when you come back??

 

if they file theirs whilst you are away and stuff need addressing

or

even after they get yours if you file now

then it could disadvantage you as they know the cards you are playing.

 

yes there prob one that can be filed now

and EB and the crew can advise on that.

 

 

just giving you a few tips

it would not hurt to file a day or two 'late'

[Gily]

What about sending it to the claimant. It would be less than 14days.

Do the claimant have access to my defence on MCOL?

I would be relieved if the paperwork is ready before I go on holiday.

[dx100uk]

don't worry about the claimant you send that 2nd class mail

and an unsigned copy.

 

its the court thats important.

 

yes the court would have fwded a copy of your defence to them when you filed it.

[Gily]

Thank you dx.

they know my points.

Is there a link to a good example of witness statement I can use?

[Gily]

Hello dx.

Can I have you help please?

I would like to finalise my paperwork tomorrow and I will send it Tue morning. I don't want to leave it till I come back.

Please.

Thank you.

[dx100uk]

IMHO if you file 2 weeks early

you are giving the claimant unfair advantage

and if they come up with everything they need too

[like signed contract with the landowner giving them permission to issue a claim in their own name]

[planning permission for the signs etc]

 

it could blow anything you file 2 weeks early out the water totally.

 

not sure what eric reckons..

..but i'd be ringing the court tomorrow and seeking leave to file on XX date

for the above reasons

[which would only be a day or two 'late'

and there are several threads here [legal section]

whereby claimants have filed 2 days before a deadline and been allowed to get away with it,

 

 

dx

[Gily]

It's not 2 weeks before the deadline. My deadline is 3.10.16

They should received the paperwork no less than 14 days before hearing, right?

If I post on 27.09 second class will be 3-4 days in advance if you count the weekend.

[dx100uk]

yea I suppose I was reading that wrong when you said going away for 2 weeks

though you'd be filing 2 weeks early.

 

 

not sure if there are any PPC witness statement examples here

what about the pranksters site?

[Gily]

I hoped you will come with some info about the WS. I will keep googling then.

What i need to include in that bundle:

WS, full defence and supportive evidence.

Is trancrips from other cases included or Law like POFA 2012 or IPC code ?

I have a few pictures to include.

What else?

Any info is much appreciated.

[dx100uk]

its not a court bundle...

 

 

you don't include your defence you've already filed that

 

 

IMHO you sent a CPR 31:14

you include and refer to that

in sofar as the claimant has not supplied any of the required documents you requested.

 

 

proof of contract

proof of planning permission

etc etc

 

 

keep it short and simple

again IMHO

you don't need to include any pictures or enter into any speculation about if/if not the signs comply to this or that

you don't even know if legally they are allowed to be put up.

 

 

did you not mention that you had proof they had no planning permission?

if you did end of problem

the claimants signs do not have the relevant planning permission under XYZ rules

so whatever was on them is totally irrelevant....

 

 

dx

[Gily]

I need to send WS which says what happened on that day

and then what correspondence we send/received.

 

I spoke over the phone with council and I got that they do not have the permission.

I asked for a letter but I don't have it yet.

Do I include this info?

 

when I got to hearing do I need any supportive documents or proofs?

 

I am reading controversial information all the time thats why I am still asking questions.

[dx100uk]

yes but you don't go into chapter and verse.

that defence you filed was way way way over the top.

and sadly mentions stuff that ideally you should never have broached yet

 

ideally the defence should have simply mentioned they had failed to date to comply with your CPR request.

in providing the information to prove they even have the legal right to issue a court claim in their own name.

and had failed to provide proof they can issue a parking ticket

 

that council letter would kill them dead if you had it.!

 

anything you mention like letters in/out should be copied and ref'd as a numbered exhibit and included with the WS.

 

harking back to the POC

I think you need to relate to how can you be issued with parking ticket because you left a carpark on foot!

 

so they have a contract with someone 'a' retailer that states thus.....

[ericsbrother]

dont forget to mention the case precedent which is Ibbotson V VCS.

 

 

Your case is even dafter as they state it was the passenger seen leaving site,

since when was that ever a consideration in contract law,

that a hitch-hiker is under your control and you become liable for their actions?

 

UKCPS know that this is silly but most people just pay up for a quiet life and that is what they were gambling on.

 

When it comes to the hearing you need to deny the driver was observed at all and put them to strict proof that they were observed doing anything.

They cant and wont

[Gily]

Thank you dx and ericsbrother.

[Gily]

I am still not sure about this:

If I am not sending full defence and my WS is simple and short and now involving speculation, how I am gonna incorporate other relevant cases and other proofs like signage at the entrance and in the car park?

Thank you

[dx100uk]

EB has far more knowledge upon this than me.

but you don't need to include your defence

they already have that.

 

 

if you wish to ref photos etc do so

but if what you are saying is true

that they don't even have planning permission..i question the need to even do that..]

 

 

dx

 

 

 

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

Your WS should state who you are, and that you are the defendant in this matter.

 

You then say that your vehicle received a ticket on it on the (date) at (place) for the supposed breach of conditions offered as a unilateral contract by UKPCS by way of their signage at the site.

 

 

You deny that any contract was formed with you in the capacity as keeper because :

 

1.UKPCS do not have the authority to enter into contracts with anyone because they do not have planning permission for their signage at this site under the Town and Country Planing Act 2007

( look up the act references to avoid confusion with other parts of the act)

and are thus committing a criminal offence by having their signs there.

 

 

You cannot enter into a criminal contract so no offer and consideration.

 

2. the alleged breach was that someone was observed leaving the site.

It is stated that this person could have been either a passenger or the driver,

 

 

it is denied that you were either of these and that in any case the passenger cannot be subject to any contractual consideration in this case and that Ibbotson v VCS (date, court etc) overrides any term that implies that the driver is bound to stay on site for the duration of parking so there has been no breach of contract by possibly leaving the site.

 

3. that UKPCS have failed to show locus standi by then failing to comply with a CPR 31.14 request for sight of their contract with the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and to make claims in their own name. It is therefoe denied

 

will complete later-have to go out

Edited September 27, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[Gily]

Thank you EB

I have been waiting for that.

Unfortunately I have posted mine this morning which is not that good.

I am boarding now.

I will update when I come back to say what paperwork I have received.

Thanks again.

[dx100uk]

you'll be ok

 

 

have a nice holiday and forget about the fleecers for the time being.

 

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

as long as the main points are covered you will be OK.

 

 

You will ahve the opportunity to talk about everything and as long as you have provided copies of the judgements you refer to like Ibbotson ( available online in several places) you will be fine.

 

 

Judges hate people quoting cases and then not giving the details-they cant look everything up!

[Gily]

Hello EB

I sent my full defence where I referred to 2 cases - Obbotson and Gaskell.

 

 

I printed out those cases and sent them with 3 pictures (signage at the entrance and the main one) which I also refered in the defence.

 

 

I was not sure how to incorporated them in my WS which was series of events.

Both could be written well better from someone with more experience but..

 

Whatever happens on the hearing I don't care any more.

Just want to be over.

 

 

I just had enough stress and time lost in reading forums (which are very helpful though)what to do and how to defend myself.

 

If I get such a parking ticket in the future I would never leave it to go to court again.

 

I will update you soon.

[ericsbrother]

you will be ordered to exchange documents about a fortnight before the hearing and you can add detail to your bundle and quote any number of other parking cases that are relevant.

 

The Parking Pranksters blog has a list of important ones and they will cover most things you would want to raiase from authority to signage, planning prohibition rather than contractual term etc.

 

When you quote Ibbotson you should make a copy of the judgement and supply it with your bundle,

most other matters can be just the case number, court, date and decision- ie Parkingco v Dr M, Winchester CC, case No xxyy123456 15th Aug 1999-

decided that contract between parking co and estate agent is a third party agreemnt and not an assignment of authority from landowner.

 

In your case the idea that an uninterested third party's (passenger's) actions can cause a tortuous interference of contract between the parties named in the action are nonsense and no loss could be shown by UKPCS for the passenger's action so they wont win a claim for economic tort.

[Gily]

Hello.

I am back

 

I have received the pack from the UKCPS.

 

The witness statement is signed by debt recovery manager, if that is allowed.

They have brief description of the people and said left side via xxx site, no pictures.

 

They've presented an agreement contract instruction which says:

type- full enforcement services.

 

It is said in the WS that UKCPS have full authority from the MANAGING AGENTS (not the landowner ) to issue charges on the land.

I can not say how legitimate is.

 

There are also a lot of pictures on the site.

 

I am still waiting a letter from the council regarding planning permission.

 

I will be in their office tomorrow as probably there are not very keen to write such a letter.