ESA - Lost Tribunal - Upper Tribunal Awarded...UT Postponed!!!!

[Nystagmite]

You don't need to wait 6 months if you have a new or worsening condition.

[Max1968]

You don't need to wait 6 months if you have a new or worsening condition.

 

 

Thank you Nystagmite so as long as I get sick notes from my GP once I receive the confirmation from the Tribunal that I have failed I can reapply for ESA and go through the whole process again?

 

 

The Tribunal Judge kept going on about the fact that employers MUST make allowances for employees with medical conditions but surely this only applies to employees who get a medical condition whilst working for an employer. I mean if there are any employers out there who whittle 50 applications down to two and then choose the wobbly vertigo guy who can't guarantee he will be in on Monday over the A Level chap who is 100% fit then I haven't as yet found them!!!

[Max1968]

Well got the decision in writing today and it was what I expected. I think I'll just stay on JSA and just add to the 300 odd job applications without success rather than reapply for ESA and go through nearly two years of that humiliating, degrading cloak and dagger experience again. To be honest the fight has gone out of me.

[Nystagmite]

Thank you Nystagmite so as long as I get sick notes from my GP once I receive the confirmation from the Tribunal that I have failed I can reapply for ESA and go through the whole process again?

 

 

The Tribunal Judge kept going on about the fact that employers MUST make allowances for employees with medical conditions but surely this only applies to employees who get a medical condition whilst working for an employer. I mean if there are any employers out there who whittle 50 applications down to two and then choose the wobbly vertigo guy who can't guarantee he will be in on Monday over the A Level chap who is 100% fit then I haven't as yet found them!!!

 

The reasonable adjustments apply to anyone, regardless of whether you become disabled whilst at work or prior to starting working. But as you probably know, there's a huge difference between needing a reasonable adjustment (such as speech to text software, larger monitors, etc) and in the nicest way possible, taking the ****. Some of us, like you and I, fall into the latter.

 

Legally, you can't be rejected just because you have a disability. But they would probably argue that because of how unreliable you'd be, they can't really take you on. Whereas if you applied, were partially sighted, (one problem I have) and your only needs were software or a larger monitor, they'd have to supply this.

 

Unfortunately, you'd have to through the ESA process again.

[Max1968]

Thank you... Interestingly enough this does pose certain "legalities" that I have wondered about with regard to getting employment with this condition..

 

For instance considering this vertigo has occurred in the 90's, 2008 and now pretty much two years solid (bar 6 months or so between December and June this year when I did have an improvement), when do I legally have to tell any employer about it?

 

With most application forms whilst it doesn't ask about specific conditions it does ask you to let them know about gaps in employment, so in my case I just put down "unemployment and illness" which is probably why I haven't received any interviews!! However if I for example wrote "travelling" for those two years and then was offered the job surely I am hiding my condition especially considering there is a high chance of phoning in the first week to say I can't come in for three weeks because the ceiling is spinning!!!

 

Obviously at some stage they will have to find out that it’s potentially either a long term or a reoccurring condition and if you have hidden that information from them then surely legally they can then just sack you? Then of course when you go for another job they ask you for a reference which is always your last employer!!!

 

You can be totally honest at an interview (if you are lucky enough to get one) but as you say it isn’t a case of large letters on a monitor it’s potentially several weeks/months off and potentially having to lie down in the staff room for half the working week!! One doubts that you would succeed at the interview!!

 

The employer “will” find out as well. When I was working a few years ago and damaged my back I was off work for two weeks. When I went back in I did it again and was off for a further week. The employer asked me to sign a form giving them access to my medical records just so they could see if I really did have a bad back so any employer will find out. Funnily enough I was made redundant about two weeks after that, funny that eh!!!!

 

So again, when on earth do you tell a potential employer?

 

Then also it’s the legality of say falling down the stairs at work. Whose fault is that? , me for working when I know I shouldn’t be? The employer for employing me? Or the delightful DWP and Tribunal Service for saying I am fit to become a trapeze artist if I so wish?!?!

 

Oh I do wish it could be possible to fall over first day at work and then be able to sue the DWP but I am sure others have tried – and failed!!

 

 

N.B - One side point I forgot to mention was that my JSA Advisor told me Monday that as I can't currently drive I could look into Access to Work. She bizarrely believes that if I can't get to any job by bus or train then I could be able to claim Taxi fares to and from work. Surely this isn't right and if it is how bizarre because a Taxi journey to and from a place of work would probably cost the Government more per week than ESA would!!!!!

[Nystagmite]

Legally, I'm not sure whether they can sack you. (I can't remember though, sorry) But if you don't disclose your disability, you can't whinge that they're not making any reasonable adjustments - they'd argue how can they, if you didn't tell them in the first place!

 

I have vertigo (amongst other things) and you do have my sympathy over this whole thing. Some people clearly don't live in the real world! Yours is probably different to mine; but I've come across people (and have been in this situation before myself) where I'm so dizzy I can't stand. Goodness knows what job anyone expects you to do.

 

With Access to Work - you have to pay the public transport costs.

[Max1968]

Oh it's a nightmare Nystagmite.

 

 

I would honestly rather have a condition that lasted all the time in many ways.

 

 

As it is now I can cope alright at the moment but in 5 minutes, 10 minutes, an hour, a days time I could be lying in bed spinning.

That's the problem I don't know when or where it will hit and for how long it will go on for,. It could be seconds, minutes or hours.

 

 

Two days ago I went to walk to the shops got into the village and one hit big time, it was like trying to walk on a bouncy castle with your eyes closed.

 

 

There was me clinging on to a railing in the half squat position, people must have thought I was drunk.

Fortunately it only lasted 10 minutes but the motion intolerance afterwards was terrible.

Hence why I have been pretty much housebound for the last month.

 

 

That's what I suffer in between attacks a motion intolerance where when you move your head everything moves, if you walk you can feel the movement and if I look left I have double vision, look right everything is still, look middle and it's half way between the two. That's there 24 hours a day.

 

 

To describe it I tell people to look at a clock or a picture on the wall.

If you move your head up and down or side to side that clock or picture will stay still because that's how the brain links to sight, in normal people.

With me that clock or picture moves!!

That gets better a bit between episodes but goes back to square one once I have an attack,

even one that lasts only seconds does the damage.

 

 

Sometimes I get warnings with a loud rumbling tinnitus but that's only seconds not hours so that's the difficulty where , when and how long it will hit for.

Sorry for ranting I just feel so angry.

 

 

The DWP and Government aren't interested in helping disabled/ill people back to work, they just want to get people off benefits!!!

[Max1968]

Quick question all.

 

 

After the negative Tribunal decision being the final end of this exhausting Saga

I now have a full file of paperwork from the Tribunals Service, DWP and so on,.

 

 

Just wondering with others whether they just shred it all or keep it in case you claim again in the future?

 

 

To be honest most of it makes me angry just looking at it but I don't want to throw anything away that I should really keep on file?

[tommy456]

I would suppose it would depend on how far the work place was, and what your wage was

but it is kind of backward thinking (which doesn't surprise me in the least)

I would keep the report and recording ,

to help you aviod a repeat should you need to claim ESA again for a new or significant worsening of your previous contion/s

 

With regards to how the last tribunal treated you ,

that is standard practise isn't it,

they are paid to be thorough thats the point of the tribunal,

though they also have to be fair too,

 

 

I have endured several that where like an interrogation my CAB adviser said that they are doing their job,

and it's nothing against me,

they will look for inconsistences,

and question the reliability of evidence if they are unsure about anything

[Max1968]

Thanks Tommy. I had to laugh this week upon my two weekly visit to the Job Centre. For some reason I was passed on to a new Advisor. Maybe the usual one was getting grief because I have been on JSA for a year and they probably have targets!! Anyway this new chap was nice enough but not being from the UK his accent was quite difficult, especially as I am partially deaf so plenty of "sorrys" and "pardons" from my side. He then started knocking my CV so I told him that the chap who designed the CV was sitting two tables down talking to a client so I politely said "best talk to him then". Interestingly enough my CV was then classed as perfectly fine!!

 

 

After looking at my UJM account he then tried to say his goodbyes until I told him that I hadn't signed on as yet. He then claimed that it wasn't my signing day because the previous Monday was a Bank Holiday. I of course stated that I had signed on two weeks prior so this "was" my two week signing day. To and fro it went until I asked him to clarify with one of the other advisors. He chose the one I secretly call The Wicked Witch of the West and she was not amused that she in fact had to advise him that I was in fact correct. It then took 10 minutes and about 20 signatures for the digital signing plate to accept my signature!!

 

Then he started waffling about weekly visits rather than two weekly. Ok fair enough I thought and he proceeded to look up an appointment for me. As politely as I could I asked to see my old advisor and I made some waffle about her knowing my circumstances etc. To his credit he did swap me back to her and said that I had an appointment in two weeks (not weekly then) at 9.20, although he wrote down 9.10. Back and forth we went again with him looking blankly at his screen until finally he seemed to work out if I should come in at 9.10 or 9.20 (I'll attend at 9.10 in case!!) I then finally after about half an hour left.

 

The funny thing is that I, just for a laugh, applied for a job as a Job Centre Advisor and couldn't even pass the online test and yet here was a chap who probably had qualifications galore but could hardly speak the lingo and had no common sense at all being advised what to do by his own client!!!

 

You couldn't make it up!!!

[Max1968]

Well had my two weekly signing again this morning and he hadn't changed me back to my usual advisor. I asked why and to start with he denied that we had even had that discussion last time out. I politely explained that I could not hear him properly to which he replied "Not my problem, that's your problem". He then explained that it's weekly now rather than two weekly. I know what must have happened. I been signing on for a year now since I failed my ESA Tribunal and they have probably moved me on to a new, more aggressive advisor because the other one wasn't hitting her targets!!

 

 

Do they have to have a qualification to work in a Job Centre?!?!?!?

[Max1968]

Fascinating conversation yesterday with an NHS representative at a Job Fayre I was instructed to attend by the Job Centre.

 

Very nice she was and extremely sympathetic to my trials and tribulations with Vertigo and the DWP,

although she is going to keep me in the loop with any potential roles for me within their admin sector

 

she mentioned something that I hadn't really thought of before.

She says the biggest difficulty I would have as someone with a fluctuating condition is this.

 

Say you are sick Monday, attend work Tuesday, sick Wednesday, attend Thursday, sick Friday.

Ok that's an extreme example but she explained that this would not be considered one period of sick absence but three within a certain time period.

Not sure what the period is but it's not very long.

 

Three sick periods within that time brings in a disciplinary warning through no fault of my own so therefore four or five periods of sickness due to my vertigo (even if they are one day each) could result in me being sacked for a lack of attendance,.

 

She says that the added problem is that this goes on your CV and of course the next job you go for you need a reference, which is your last employer. Why does everyone seem to realise that a fluctuating condition is as disabling as a permanent one except the DWP, Job Centre and Tribunal Service?!!!!!

 

BTW I did forget to mention in my rant in the previous post that whilst signing on Monday I had a massive vertigo attack at my advisors desk.

 

He led me to a seat and told me I could stay there as long as I liked.

 

I was there for 45 minutes sitting and spinning and "no-one" came over in this time to see how I was.

 

What is the matter with this country?!

[BazzaS]

Awful for you to be left for 45 minutes, and I wouldn't wish a disabling attack on anyone but (given you were having an attack) : A shame you didn't like everywhere! That'd have had them taking notice and "doing something"......

[BazzaS]

"Like everywhere" -> "puke everywhere"

 

Blinking autocorrect!

[Max1968]

Thanks Bazza. They are all like robots to be honest bar my usual advisor that I am now apparently not seeing. I'm seeing The Wicked Witch of the West next week and would love to do an Exorcist style projectile vomit over her but that's one symptom I fortunately don't get!!!

 

 

I ironically have an Interview this afternoon with The Ministry of Justice for a position as an Admin Assistant at a Court helping out tribunals etc. Ironic eh!!! Deliberately applied for may I add and I am looking forward to asking them that due to my condition are they able to make allowances for that condition? Of course my Tribunal said that all employers would make allowances so they surely will won't they?!?!?!? Sarcasm overload, sorry!!

[Max1968]

Just an update of which may amuse some of you. My vertigo is a lot better now bar the odd wobble and a bit of motion intolerance and I succeeded at an interview last week so am due to start work on 4th January. Yesterday I had to fill in a health questionnaire as part of the pre work check and of course you have to mention current or previous conditions.

 

 

This morning I whilst out of a signal area received a message asking me to call the Health Company who sent the form. I am now desperately trying to contact the "nurse" before I go away tomorrow but she either is having a very long lunch or can't be bothered to pick up the phone. I have no idea why she wants more information but the whole irony of all this is that it is through Maximus who of course are the same company who did my ESA health assessment a year and a half ago.

 

 

So what's the chances eh that the company who declared me "fit for work" when I was very ill will suddenly drag me in for a medical and declare me "unfit for work" now I have found a job that they said I was fit for when I wasn't, if that makes sense!!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry but that is definitely the definition of irony!!!!

[Max1968]

Well finally got hold of the nurse from Maximus and would you believe that she didn't know that diabetes readings are now taken by the HbA1c test rather than the old way of measuring glucose. My surgery has been giving my readings by HbA1c for years and yet a nurse doing health assessments for a health company for employers doesn't even know what it is!!! Shocking!!

[Nystagmite]

Oh dear! And a quick Google would tell her that...

 

Hope all goes well.

[BazzaS]

Well finally got hold of the nurse from Maximus and would you believe that she didn't know that diabetes readings are now taken by the HbA1c test rather than the old way of measuring glucose. My surgery has been giving my readings by HbA1c for years and yet a nurse doing health assessments for a health company for employers doesn't even know what it is!!! Shocking!!

 

HbA1c and blood sugar dont even measure the same (HbA1c being an “integrated version of blood sugars”.

One can attend a diabetes outpatient clinic with a high blood sugar and it could mean they’d had great control but just had a hypo and been treated .......

 

Using a weather analogy: if you want to know what the weather is you can look out the window and see if it is raining (the analogy being blood sugar : you get a result for what it is at that moment, like “is it raining, and how hard”.

However if you want to know if has been a rainy or dry year : look at the reservoir and see if it is full or empty.

HbA1c is like “the reservoir”.

 

Each time a red cell gets made, its haemoglobin gets some sugar added, and how much gets added is dependant on what the blood sugar is at that time.

So, HbA1c is a measure of how all the blood sugars have been over the last 3 months or so (due to the average life span of a red blood cell).

 

Their nurse absolutely should know about HbA1c, or be sent on training if they are assessing diabetics!

[Max1968]

You should be a training instructor Bazza that's a brilliant analogy and perfectly put. GP's (or mine anyway) don't even bother looking at the blood sugar these days just the HbA1c which makes hiding the odd chocolate éclair a tad easier!!! All sorted anyway and passed the medical assessment although it cost me £6 in phone calls chasing that bloody nurse. Premium rate number to chase up a medical assessor that you personally hadn't asked for in the first place!!

[BazzaS]

You should be a training instructor Bazza that's a brilliant analogy and perfectly put.

 

Thank you. Feel free to borrow the analogy, and I could always consider that as a new career (if it isn't already part of my job .........).

 

Sadly, not everyone believes the same as you ..... though I'm usually able to back up what I say if I'm asked .....

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?473574-How-could-the-NHS-save-money/page2 posts 21-26 etc., for example.

 

 

GP's (or mine anyway) don't even bother looking at the blood sugar these days just the HbA1c which makes hiding the odd chocolate éclair a tad easier!!!

 

If your HbA1c is fine, does the occasional choc eclair matter?.

Ask your doc...... if you ask them "my HBA1c is good, with the occasional choc eclair, will I live longer if I give them up?", chances are you'll get the reply "No, but it may seem like it .........."

 

All sorted anyway and passed the medical assessment

 

Congrats!.