Property Management Company Debt - Arrears Fees

[medievil2003]

Hi everyone,

 

I live in a flat which i have to pay ground rent every 6 months.

I've always paid on time over the space of 6 years.

The account was setup to have payment requests sent via email, a work email.

 

Since October last year that email address no longer existed,

better put i had no access to it anymore.

 

 

I then received a Payment request through the post

demanding what is rightfully owed to them

but they have added "Ground Rent Arrears Fee" x4 of them totaling to: £330.00,

 

 

i disputed this amount and sent a cheque of the original amount due of £200.00

saying there was no access to emails since this had become due.

They sent the cheque back and demanded the full payment

and still are with arrears fees still being added.

 

In answer to my first letter to them explaining about the email,

they said i was bound to the terms when registering for an online billing account

that all bills would be sent to that email address only.

 

Do i have any space for argue here?

Seeing as the fees are so high every time,

i have no means to pay it at the moment due to my working hours have been heavily decreased.

Can i argue to the fact of the email account or the extremely high charges?

 

Your help would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[mikeymack2002]

Yes you can. Demand that all communications are in standard written format to your home..

[medievil2003]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

 

But can i argue the arrears based on me saying the email address has not been in use since October last year? They're simply telling me that when i signed up for an online account I've agreed for them to send email bills only.

 

They've just kept racking up these fees, to them decide to write to me with this large bill.

[mikeymack2002]

How did you receive the latest bill? Your answer could answer your original question.

 

Secondly have any late fees been added to your account?

[dx100uk]

are penalty fees not unlawful ?

they are trying it on.?

 

 

dx

[medievil2003]

Mikeymack2003 - its not so much of a bill that came through the post but a "Payment Request" outlining the fees, perhaps they have a policy that states they have to send this via post after a certain amount of times they sent request by email, not sure.

dx100uk - ah really! they've charged interest on the overdue ground rent which i accept. What do i do here? Simply write them a letter stating the "Ground rent arrears fees" are unlawful, also including the original ground rent payment as a cheque with the interest they stated.

 

Thanks!

[45002]

Hi everyone,

 

I live in a flat which i have to pay ground rent every 6 months.

I've always paid on time over the space of 6 years.

The account was setup to have payment requests sent via email, a work email.

 

Since October last year that email address no longer existed,

better put i had no access to it anymore.

 

I then received a Payment request through the post

demanding what is rightfully owed to them

but they have added "Ground Rent Arrears Fee" x4 of them totaling to: £330.00,

 

 

i disputed this amount and sent a cheque of the original amount due of £200.00

saying there was no access to emails since this had become due.

They sent the cheque back and demanded the full payment

and still are with arrears fees still being added.

 

In answer to my first letter to them explaining about the email,

they said i was bound to the terms when registering for an online billing account

that all bills would be sent to that email address only.

 

Do i have any space for argue here?

Seeing as the fees are so high every time,

i have no means to pay it at the moment due to my working hours have been heavily decreased.

Can i argue to the fact of the email account or the extremely high charges?

 

Your help would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

Hi, thanks for your reply.

 

But can i argue the arrears based on me saying the email address has not been in use since October last year? They're simply telling me that when i signed up for an online account I've agreed for them to send email bills only.

 

They've just kept racking up these fees, to them decide to write to me with this large bill.

 

You knew back in October 2015 ....

 

So why didn't you just set up another Email account Before you no longer had access to the old Email saving you any grief

 

Plenty of free and paid for Email accounts around .....

[medievil2003]

Fair comment, but they ask for ground rent every 6 months, meaning in this period what's outstanding would have been from July to December, due in December.

 

I knew nothing back in October, it was the email account which i stopped having access to. I have about 6 different email accounts for my work and this one was cluttered up with everything, spam and all sorts.

 

As dx100uk mentioned, the penalty fees are unlawful - i just now need some guidance on how to approach them. I am not disputing the ground rent arrears just the fees they have charged.

[ericsbrother]

What does your lease say about this?

If they havent correctly sent the demand then the GR isnt striclty due

so they cant charge an arrears fee even if it was in the lease.

 

Likewise returning the GR cheque is a failure to mitigate on their part

so no action can be taken for not paying it as they have actually refused the payment.

 

If the penalty was enforceable they could sue you for that money

but they know it isnt so will sod you about instead and try and claim you are at fault.

 

Problem is these companies forget they actually work for someone else and have ideas above their station.

[medievil2003]

I'll have to dig the lease out and take a look. The problem is that they were sending the GR correctly but just to that email i stopped using and forget this was setup to that email account.

 

When i sent the £200.00 it was mainly for that reason, if they sent it back they've refused it.

 

I've just had another letter from them today stating how i can pay and how they have used their discretion and best endeavors to keep costs down, if payment is not received we will instruct solicitors to take further action. I just need the slightest guidance on how i should respond to them.

 

 

Thanks.

[andydd]

If you at one point asked for gr demands to

Be emailed and then the email account went dead then they may be able to say that they did indeed send valid demands but I doubt it, generally sending my post is the accepted methods, there is legislation covering this.

 

Even if validly demanded they canT add on fees unless lease allows and even then as it's an admin fee it's only payable if a valid admin charges -summary of rights is sent and even then it sounds excessive and unreasonable and could be challenged.

 

Your scenario is very familiar do many companies try it on.

 

Write asking which part of the lease allows such charges

[medievil2003]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

 

I have not replied to them yet but have found this which they sent with the payment request. Will this help in anyway?

 

 

 

Thanks.

form of rent demand notice.pdf

[mariner51]

Not really, can't read it.

[dx100uk]

try now

 

 

dx

[andydd]

are penalty fees not unlawful ?

they are trying it on.?

 

 

 

 

dx

 

Not true. If the lease allows for such changes then they are payable assuming valid demands sent and legislation complied with.

[andydd]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

 

I have not replied to them yet but have found this which they sent with the payment request. Will this help in anyway?

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

That looks like a proper valid demand for ground rent and the admin summary looks correct BUT extra charges only payable IF the lease allows.

 

And also the demand for the extra admin fees must be attached to the summary of rights part, it's not valid if they sent it seperately.

[medievil2003]

Hi Andy, thanks for that.

 

I've just sent them an email asking for where it states in the lease those charges apply also noting they refused the payment i sent for the ground rent.

 

I suppose i just have to wait until they reply!

[andydd]

Refusing to accept ground rent until you pay the extra charges is s coming trick, see if so many times, if you know their bank account you can pay the gr that way or if not all you can do is sent cheque anf if it goes to court show you tried to pay.

 

These situations normally end in stale mate. But yes wait n see what they say, if nothing come back here for more info.

[medievil2003]

HI all, i've got a reply from them with the lease extract

 

 

but reading through it i cannot see anything that says that are permitted to charge the admin fees etc,

 

 

have i perhaps missed something?

 

 

Thank you

Lease Extracts.pdf

[andydd]

I assume the * clauses are what they hope to rely upon ?

 

They seem to have hedged their bets and marked various clauses in the lease hopping that one applies.

 

I dont think any of them allow the FH just to add on a charge for late payment but maybe 2 (12) b & 4 (2) do ?

 

2 (1) Says you must pay the ground rent, no disagreement here BUT it must be demanded in accordance with S166 of Commonhold & Leasehold Reform Act 2002.

 

2 (2) The LH must pay 'rate taxes duties charges assessment impositions outgoings', I read this as IF there are extra charges or taxes imposed upon the FH then the LH must pay, this is NOT the same as just added on a late payment fee which is what the FH has done.

 

2 (12) (b). This is closer and would appear for the FH to recover certain costs incurred it doesnt IMO allow them to just add on a late payment fee BUT only to recover ACTUAL costs incurred, an application can be made to FTT to decide IF costs are reasonable, (for example at mine they concludedcost of sending a letter would be £25 not £150). A word of warning it may allow them to recover legal costs should they employ a solicitor, more worrying this wouldnt fall under service charge so the 'safety' provisions of S20C (which limit/disallow legal costs) may not apply.

 

4 (2). This indemnifies the FH and the LH is responsible for costs charges expenses incurred, but I think this is when one LH asks the FH to take action against another LH, for example, the LH above has noisy pets and pets arnt allowed, thats my reading of this otherwise this clause is the same as 2 (12) (b).

 

Ultimately the lease does have quite a lot of clauses and you may well be liable, your strongest argument may be the email one and the fact they simply did NOT comply with S166 in that GR demands were not sent and certainly not received.

[medievil2003]

Hi there,

 

My dad runs a property refurbishment company and recently a long term client of his asked if my dad under his company will manage his properties as he is planning on going away for a year or more.

 

The client specified that he dont want to fly back and forth to sign tenancy agreements etc and would prefer not to have his name on the paperwork between tenants (didn't ask why) and would rather my dad under a "department" of the company classed as a property management side manage everything for him.

 

This is probably a very simple question for many, but first time for us. If his client authorizes my dads company to manage everything for him, including signing the tenancy agreements is it ok to do this legally or will a party somewhere down the line want to know who the landlord / owner of the property is? then leave my dad in a difficult position whether to give out his clients details....

 

Thank you!

[ericsbrother]

The tenancy will be between the landlord and the tenant, the agent of the landlord can sign everything on LL behalf as long as the rights to do so are properly assigned. LL's name will appear on paperwork unless he wants to give a lease or tenancy to your dad for a fixed period for free and if that is the case then the LL cant expect to receive the rent. Cant eat cake and have it.

 

This doesnt afect the tenants rights to sue landlord for dilapidation , not holding deposit in approved scheme etc.Managing agent cannot prevent tenant findng out who LL is and likewise cannot withhold address for service of documents etc. This addy could be the same as the house that is being rented out if no other address in the UK is available.

 

Dad should ask himself whether he wants the potential hassle but in reality managing someone's portfolio for a year isnt that onerous unless there are bad tenants or the LL is a nightmare anyway. He should be able to gauge that by the type of work he has done for him in the past, if it is full refurb after every tenant moves out then that should tell him something.

Edited April 4, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[Steve__M]

Assuming it is not illegal to withhold the landlord's identity then I believe that your dad becomes liable if the tenant wishes to sue the landlord.

 

http://www.easylawforlandlords.co.uk/member-home/week-6/agency-part/

However where [agent] acts for an undisclosed principal, he will incur personal liability. As the third party will be ignorant of the existence of the principal, so far as he is aware the agent IS the principal.

Your dad needs to discuss this with a lawyer.

[medievil2003]

Hi Guys,

 

Sorry, have not logged in for a while. Thank you for your replies, helps a lot.

 

As you mentioned, it's not worth the hassle! Especially as this customer has failed to pay his last invoice....

[medievil2003]

Hi Andy, good afternoon

 

Thanks for your helpful reply back in March and apologies for the delay coming back! How time flies!

 

I am now in process of selling the property and with these arrears the solicitor appointed for the sale said it shouldn't be disputed as it'll delay the sale process dramtically. I had an intention of taking it to first-tier tribunal but i was advised i wouldn't be able to sell the flat if it's there.

 

It seems that now the ground rent company know i am selling it, they've again sent out 2 more letters with the costs again increased.

 

The solicitor said it'll be best to pay them off to not delay but my question now, taking note of all your advice, is can this be disputed after the sale has been completed with a hope to get some of the money back?

 

 

Many thanks.