Sold my car privately, buyer threatening court action

[Signum]

Hello all,

 

I have only joined this forum today but having spent the last few days reading lots of other cases, they all seem to be subtly different to mine and I'd appreciate some advice. This is a long post, but for those willing and able to advise me, thank you in advance for your patience and I think the whole story is worth having.

 

On 28th October, I sold my 10 year old Vauxhall automatic via an ebay classified advert. I felt I had advertised it at a fair price and with a fair description. The first person to look at it test drove it, liked it and bought it a few days later. There is (of course) more detail, which I will try to summarise here.

 

23rd Oct - Test drove the car, said he thought I had described it very well and that it drove well, but he wasn't sure whether the automatic gearbox was changing gear at the right points, essentially wanting to be at approx 2,000rpm before changing up. He said he was buying for his brother and would call back later, but didn't.

 

24th Oct - He called back saying he wanted the car and paid me a £100 deposit against an agreed price of £1,750 - that being reasonable for a top of the range 6-speed automatic diesel with all the bells and whistles and reasonable mileage. He said he would come back the following day to collect, but didn't.

 

Interim - He asked me by ebay message whether the gearbox was OK or not. I responded truthfully that I thought it was, but I wasn't an expert and he was welcome to drive it again if he wanted to before purchase. It was changing smoothly and seemed fine to me.

 

28th Oct - Eventually he came back on the Wednesday night (quite late) with another brother (not the one the car was for) and accepted my offer of a second test drive. The brother drove it for an hour at all speeds up to about 80mph telling me he was a trader and had trade insurance to drive the car. They didn't seem sure that it was OK, but were comparing it to other cars (a 4-speed Merc auto and a 5-speed Vauxhall V6 auto). Having owned cars of those generations before I knew they are different but left them to make their own minds up about my car. Eventually, we returned to my driveway and it was clear they were still undecided. I suggested they might test drive a similar car (same 1.9 diesel and 6-speed auto) so they could compare and then they could come back before the weekend, when I was going away for a fortnight with work. I left them to talk privately in my driveway but they quickly came into the house, said it was OK, paid and took the car away.

 

29th Oct - Having heard that the V5 can be transferred online, I did this at 8am and then took the money to the bank and paid it in, only to receive a call around midday saying that he had taken it to a Vauxhall dealer near his home, who sent a technician out in the car and said the gearbox wasn't changing gear when it should. I wasn't convinced and made the point that I'd given him every chance to delay or cancel buying it, to which he said 'I know you did, it's just a bad decision I guess' but hung up when I pointed out that we had agreed that it was sold as seen.

 

I didn't believe that it was actually faulty so I described the behaviour to the relevant owners forum and got back several owners posting confirmations that their cars behaved the same way. Indeed, the car has very little torque below about 1800rpm and changing up below 2,000 rpm would have put the revs too low to make any sense by my reasoning.

 

While away, I received an eBay message stating that he has passed the car to his brother, taxed it and his brother is also of the opinion that the gearbox is faulty and that I knew that before the sale. He said he has spoken to Trading Standards and they have assured him that he has a case against me because the car isn't fit for purpose and I didn't advertise it as faulty. That isn't true or fair, so I need to respond formally saying so.

 

Although still a bit jetlagged, I'm back now and I've spoken with CAB and their Consumer Direct phone service, getting the advice that the Sale of Goods Act (1979) applies only insofar as legal title and description (make, model, colour, features etc), but not fitness for purpose.

 

I think the key questions are:

 

1. Having been asked whether the gearbox is OK, my response was 'yes, I think so, but I'm not an expert, if you want to drive it again to be sure, please do'. In this case, if he can get a professional opinion that the gearbox is faulty after all, how is this likely to be viewed by a Judge in the Small Claims Court? Have I misdescribed the car by saying that it changes gear as it should even if in good faith and now in the knowledge that other owners have 'non-faulty' cars that behave the same as mine did when he and his brother drove it?
    
   
2. Does the fact he brought a more knowledgeable person along to drive it for him the second time have any relevance? Describing himself as a trader, the brother drove the car for about an hour before (I assume) advising the buyer to part with his cash.
    
   
3. I'm not the sort of person to rip anyone off. I wouldn't have offered it for sale if I thought it was faulty or would end up like this. Indeed I've bought cars in the past that turned out to have faults and it never occurred to me that I should seek redress from the (private) seller. Should I be offering him anything? Should I have him take it to a garage I trust (at my expense) to check it?
   

 

If it helps, I can provide a copy of the advert.

 

Grateful for your help.

 

Many thanks,

 

Ian.

[king12345]

You're a private seller with no mechanical knowledge as pointed out in your communication to the buyer.

The car is indeed sold as seen.

Forget about this guy's threat, it will not materialise.

If he's so stupid to start a court claim he will lose, 100%.

Just tell him that you wish him the best of luck with his court case.

[Signum]

Thank you King12345. If my defence was purely that I had zero knowledge of mechanical issues then that would be untruthful as I do my own basic maintenance at home, for example oil changes and the cambelt change. In my mind though, there is a world of difference in those sorts of tasks and anything to do with an auto gearbox, which I do have very little knowledge of.

 

Therefore my view has been, based on how it drives, that it was smooth and made 'sensible' changes, or at least was the same as all the others.

 

Does this change your view? He obviously feels wronged, or is trying it on. I can't tell which and suspect the latter but he seemed OK when he bought the car. Both he and his brother said they had 'trade insurance' but in his case he said he was not a trader and that trade insurance was cheaper for him as he had several cars (indeed mine was transferred into his name rather than the brother who is driving it, but that is not my concern).

 

Many thanks,

 

Ian.

[JoeyJoeC]

Just to mention, gears changing at the wrong RPM isn't a gearbox issue. I have successfully repaired such as issue on an automatic by replacing some capacitors in the ECU for less than £4 in parts. These parts do fail in old cars. Although this may not be the issue the car has, it most certainly is nothing to do with the gearbox.

[king12345]

Private car sales are not regulated as much as commercial sales.

As long as you have described the vehicle accurately then there's no come back.

You have described the car accurately.

They test drove it twice and decided to buy it.

Now they just want some money back because of a faulty gearbox.

Is it really faulty? Doubt it.

Is it your problem? NO!

The car doesn't belong to you anymore.

Even if you were a mechanical engineer, you cannot say if a gearbox should change at 2000rpm or 3000rpm.

The important thing is that the car drives well, gears don't jump out and you described the car accurately.

All of their claim is just a trick to get money out of you.

If they are so stupid to really waste money on a court claim, it will be the easiest case to defend.

Save your original advert, text messages and emails.

Also write down all time and dates you spoke on the phone and what was said.

In any case, as the car is in "brother" name, it will have to be him to claim.

As he's been a ghost so far, I think that these two characters buy and sell cheap cars and in the making they try to take money off honest people like you.

They're not the first and surely won't be the last.

Wish them good luck and let them know that you won't answer their calls anymore.

They'll soon disappear and start conning someone else.

[king12345]

I bet your car is already up for sale at inflated price on one of the main websites (ebay, gumtree, auto trader, etc.)

[Conniff]

I think you have been given very fair advice. It's not very likely they have contacted Trading Standards.

 

You should not enter into letter / message tennis with these people.

 

You might change your own oil and cambelt, but that does not make you a professional or give you the capacity to advise on the condition of something as complex as an auto gearbox. I do beans on toast, that doesn't make me a chef.

 

They had two extended test drives and then decided to buy and are just trying it on, he said he was a trader, I think that tells us all where they are coming from.

 

Sit back and relax and don't respond to them any further, they will realise you aren't they mug they were hoping for and will go away and try it somewhere else on someone else.

 

Definitely do not voice your opinion about it being a good or bad car, you are not qualified to make such a statement.

[Signum]

Thank you. I'll post here if / as the situation unfolds.

 

The letter I was planning to send him (as advised by Consumer Direct) is attached. Do you have any comments on it?

 

While I would prefer not to engage in any form with the buyer now, CD suggested I should do in writing, by registered mail. I've read elsewhere on here that a Judge (if it went to court) might see non-response as unhelpful and sympathise with the buyer. I have also included the text from my eBay advert in case anyone believes it has any material influence on him deciding to buy it.

 

It's worth saying that he hasn't outlined any request or value to me so far.

 

His last communication, to which I would be replying, is below:

 

----------------------------

Hi ******* after having the car for a short period of time I've come to the conclusion that you new the gearbox in this car was falty. I told you my concerns at the time and you reassured me that's the way the gearbox operated. I called you the day after I purchased the car, to relay my finding after taking it to the local Vauxhall garage.

Which one of there engineers told me that the gearbox was falty.

As you no I purchased the car for my brother. He taxed it yesterday and drove it for the first time and he came to the same conclusion. (Falty gearbox) Now I have spoken to trading standards this morning with regards to this matter which they a sure me that I have a case.

It doesn't matter that you put sold as seen on the receipt the car isn't fit for purpose. Also when you advertised it on ebay you didn't describe the car with any faults. You also mentioned in a correspondent with myself through eBay that I shouldn't have any concerns with the gearbox.

I shouldn't have to spend money on a car the very next day after purchase. If we cannot come to some sort of resolution then I'm going to have to take this small claims.

I'm unhappy my brother is very unhappy that I spent £1750 for a falty vehicle. So £75 to take you to small claims is nothing in the grand scheme of thing.

Can we please sort this out before I go down that root.

Thanks ***********

---------------------------

 

Thanks all,

 

Ian.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Signum
Added eBay text from advert

[andydd]

I cant see that his claim has any merit.

 

He asked you about the gearbox, you said you were no expert but thought it ok, he had two test drives with different people and we must assume reached same conclusion (that the gearbox was ok).

 

He then arranged a deal and purchased the car, a judge might well say that he went into the agreement/contract with all that knowledge, i.e slight doubts about gearbox but 2 test drives, etc and negotiated a fair price taking those factors into account (perhaps if he had no slight worries about gearbox he may of offered £2000 ?).

 

Ha may or may not of contacted Trading Standards, even if he did we dont know what he told them, they are far from legal experts, they may give similar positive advice to ALL queries.

[Old Cogger]

No case here for them it would seem. maybe they changed their mind on the colour of the car! see what happens if anything next!

[Conniff]

Thank you. I'll post here if / as the situation unfolds.

 

The letter I was planning to send him (as advised by Consumer Direct) is attached. Do you have any comments on it?

 

While I would prefer not to engage in any form with the buyer now, CD suggested I should do in writing, by registered mail. I've read elsewhere on here that a Judge (if it went to court) might see non-response as unhelpful and sympathise with the buyer.

 

It's worth saying that he hasn't outlined any request or value to me so far.

 

His last communication, to which I would be replying, is below:

 

----------------------------

Hi ******* after having the car for a short period of time I've come to the conclusion that you new the gearbox in this car was falty. I told you my concerns at the time and you reassured me that's the way the gearbox operated. I called you the day after I purchased the car, to relay my finding after taking it to the local Vauxhall garage.

Which one of there engineers told me that the gearbox was falty.

As you no I purchased the car for my brother. He taxed it yesterday and drove it for the first time and he came to the same conclusion. (Falty gearbox) Now I have spoken to trading standards this morning with regards to this matter which they a sure me that I have a case.

It doesn't matter that you put sold as seen on the receipt the car isn't fit for purpose. Also when you advertised it on ebay you didn't describe the car with any faults. You also mentioned in a correspondent with myself through eBay that I shouldn't have any concerns with the gearbox.

I shouldn't have to spend money on a car the very next day after purchase. If we cannot come to some sort of resolution then I'm going to have to take this small claims.

I'm unhappy my brother is very unhappy that I spent £1750 for a falty vehicle. So £75 to take you to small claims is nothing in the grand scheme of thing.

Can we please sort this out before I go down that root.

Thanks ***********

---------------------------

 

Thanks all,

 

Ian.

 

No no no - please don't send anything especially mentioning a problem with the gearbox. I'm afraid that Consumer Direct, (nor CAB), are always correct, they do not think about it but give a lot of standard answers.

 

You really would be advised to not respond in any way and see what they next say to you and then come back here.

[Signum]

Thank you both. I've added my eBay description above in case that is what they believe provides a case. I'd really like to understand how they construct a case and whether it has any merit, as well as how to defend myself.

 

I'll go back to disposing of my old car by word of mouth - generally they go to people I know and I have only ever had positive reactions, even a year or more later.

 

Hopefully the buyer will agree there's no case to answer and I won't hear any more, but as anyone in this position must also feel, the threat is enough to be disruptive to my otherwise peacable life.

 

Ian.

[Signum]

No no no - please don't send anything especially mentioning a problem with the gearbox. I'm afraid that Consumer Direct, (nor CAB), are always correct, they do not think about it but give a lot of standard answers.

 

You really would be advised to not respond in any way and see what they next say to you and then come back here.

 

Thank you - I'll take your advice and hold off for now. CAB certainly gave standard answers but then referred me to their phone service (CD). They listened to the particulars and then quoted the Sale of Goods Act and its limitations in private sales suggesting the letter and wishing me luck. His last communication was on 5th Nov but he knew I would be away until this week and wouldn't necessarily be expecting a response straight away. Indeed I didn't take anything with my eBay password on it away with me so I wasn't able to respond anyway.

[andydd]

Worth remembering IF it did goes as far as court to provide strong evidence especially when it comes to the agreement (the contract), you both went into it armed with all the relevant information and a deal was reached.

 

We had a case here before reagrding something similar, a caravan I think but the Judge made a strange decision that surprised a lot of us.

 

Its worth following CPR Pre action protocols as best you can and maybe offer a small amount off, this will at least show youve tried being reasonable.

 

Also mark any correspondence 'Without Prejudice Save As To Costs' at the top.

[king12345]

Agree with conniff.

Don't send them anything unless you receive a letter before claim.

And if you get to that point, just reply by explaining that you have described the car to the best of your non-expert knowledge.

They test drove the car twice and accepted the deal.

End of!

By the way that illiterate guy writes his official letters, I'm even more convinced that he's one of those street car dealers with no fixed address.

One question: What name and address did you write on the v5 before sending it to dvla?

[Signum]

The details I sent to DVLA are the ones he gave me - his name (not his brother's) and an address about an hours drive from here. I kept a copy of the completed V5 and have a signed receipt here with both our names, addresses and annotated with 'Private sale - sold as seen, tried and tested - no guarantee'. He evidently doesn't accept that it's sold as seen and would appear to be relying solely on the description at this point rather than his own judgement or that offered to him by the car trading brother.

 

I did look, but can't see it for sale anywhere yet. I think the brother it was for is up in Birmingham, about 2 hours perhaps from the buyer, but from what he said it was to remain in the buyer's name and not the keeper's. I asked at the time if he wanted me to fill in the yellow part of the V5 but he wanted the car registered to him.

 

If they have simply changed their mind, I would expect they could easily get their money back - dealers appear to be advertising that model / mileage at around £2,500 - £3,000, obviously with some kind of warranty.

[Conniff]

Dealers don't give warranties, that is just part of the garb to entice people to buy.

[king12345]

Did you send the v5 to dvla yourself?

[Signum]

Did you send the v5 to dvla yourself?

 

Effectively, yes. Notification of sale or disposal can now be done online, so after being advised of this by a friend, I transferred it to him in accordance with what he had written on the V5 at 8am the morning after he took the car away. The DVLA website then instructed me to destroy the original V5, which I did and I have subsequently received the acknowledgement letter.

[king12345]

Effectively, yes. Notification of sale or disposal can now be done online, so after being advised of this by a friend, I transferred it to him in accordance with what he had written on the V5 at 8am the morning after he took the car away. The DVLA website then instructed me to destroy the original V5, which I did and I have subsequently received the acknowledgement letter.

 

Ok, well done

[panther12]

Effectively, yes. Notification of sale or disposal can now be done online, so after being advised of this by a friend, I transferred it to him in accordance with what he had written on the V5 at 8am the morning after he took the car away. The DVLA website then instructed me to destroy the original V5, which I did and I have subsequently received the acknowledgement letter.

I've used the dvla online service to notify change of keeper and it works pretty well and you also get email confirmation of the sale - so have instant proof that you're no longer the registered keeper without having to post off the V5 and wait for dvla to send you a confirmation letter. In our case it only took 3 days before buyer received new V5 in their own name.

[Signum]

I have been thinking about how to respond. I accept that the general advice is not to, but this isn't like me at all and I want to be fair with this man so he can see clearly that he has no case against me. If I were to respond with something like this:

 

(see attachment)

 

Comments and advice welcome and appreciated - I'm considering andy-dd's point above and while I can't find the thread about the motor-caravan I believe I have read it and it came as something of a surprise, so I wonder if there was more to it than in this case. I have nothing to hide from the Court so don't think it is appropriate to use 'without prejudice' in any correspondence.

 

Thanks all for your patience.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Signum

[Conniff]

It's the honesty and morality of people like you that makes them continue to do these things.

 

Ultimately how you play this is up to you but you would be well advised to take note of what you have been told on here.

[SabreSheep]

If you feel you must reply

 

No harm in saying

 

" I find your claim vexatious and without merit. Any Court action shall be defended rigorously and an application made to strike out any claim on that basis with an application for costs to be awarded against yourselves."

 

Best reply is no reply though IMO unless they send a letter titled LETTER BEFORE ACTION

[andydd]

If you feel you must reply

 

No harm in saying

 

" I find your claim vexatious and without merit. Any Court action shall be defended rigorously and an application made to strike out any claim on that basis with an application for costs to be awarded against yourselves."

 

Best reply is no reply though IMO unless they send a letter titled LETTER BEFORE ACTION

 

Its a toss up between not replying and sending a letter similar to above.

 

IMO IF the claimant has sent a reasonable Letter Before Action then perhaps we as a professional advice site should ask OP's to follow the CPR Pre-Action Protocols, they are there for a purpose, they do not say ignore correspondence.

 

Of course it could be argued that not following them makes little difference, Judges in small claims dont really appear interested, it could also be argued that the process should only be followed where it looks likely that the a claim WILL actually be started and its not just idle threats.