Euro Car Parks - Illegal tickets??

[fairplayforall]

Goodnight all, dream about becoming better people.

[kiptower]

yes what the law is on the matter , if you cant understand it and want to listen to the [problematic] you employ , then it will cost you in the end

 

you can make as many rules as you like but it does not allow you or your agent to issue the [problem] invoice , there is no law that allows you to fine , charge a penalty or demand money from someone parking, there is NO LOSS you have already said its a free car park

 

just how many times does it need explaining to you ,

 

someone post the MacDee's watchdog clip for him maybe then he wil understand

[TallMan100]

nobody has ever been given a ticket in my car park that had not broken the rules. I do not [problem] and I make nothing from the tickets, the proceeds of the ticket go to the company to recover the court costs etc

 

Fairplayforall. You seem like a decent bloke. Why on earth are you employing ECP to look after your carpark. You gain nothing financially but may be alienating your customers!

[lamma]

No

 

nor agency rights ? ?

[42man]

Can we please keep things 'civil' and free of insults, I can understand all points of view here. I too am victim to a number of people who work in town who park outside my house all day while they work in shops in town, and often residents are unable to park anywhere on the street. However there are no restrictions (yet) and they are allowed to do so. As it stands the residents on the street have to tolerate it. By all means discuss, but please also agree to disagree.

[DBC]

The same thing happens in my street but, even though there is a very large car-park at the top of the street (and nearer the town centre) which only charges £3.50 for a full-day's parking. Luckily the council are bringing in a residents parking scheme.in the very near future. So everything will be legal and above board and with no involvement with PPCs.

[Goingforaride]

Oh dear, Mr fairplayforall......Please read and digest the following......you clearly don't get it..........People aren't trying to get away with it but merely want things to be fair, which these invoices are not.

 

Given the lack of statutory authority (unlike the police and local authorities), PPCs (private parking company) can only be claiming for some sort of breach of contract (a contract for parking).

 

Point 1 here - there can only be a contract if the terms of the contract are sufficiently known to both parties (i.e. if there are very few signs or they're confusing/not in the right location, there's no contract).

 

Point 2 - For a contract claim, a party needs to suffer a loss, or "damage", which can either be "liquidated" (fixed) in the contract or "unliquidated" (that is, to be quantified when a claim arises).

 

These "PCNs" (penalty charge notice) purport to be "fines" but are more likely to be liquidated damages, but to be enforceable in law, they need to represent "a reasonable pre-estimate of the loss suffered".

If they're more than that, they're a penalty for breach of contract and, under English contract law, penalties are NOT enforceable and one cannot impose any penalty on another. (whether monetary or other).

 

In other words, these "PCNs" would be legitimate if they were for, say, a few pounds if the car park has similar lost charges. For free car parks, what loss has the PPC suffered?

 

I think you now need to draw a line under your comments!

[fairplayforall]

the loss to car park owners like myself is the loss of business by our own customers not being able to park and therefore our lost custom, the charges have to be in place to act as a deterrent for the people who are not reasonable and dont follow the rules which are clearly stated throughout the car park, at the entrance and all thoroughfares. In order to impost the charges, someone has to take the time to issue a ticket and then whatever correspondence is required, you must remember it is not just the cost of the ink and paper but people have to be employed to do these jobs so costs must be covered. Car parks are not only convenient for the shopper but also create much needed jobs. The car park owners like myself make nothing from this, so ask yourself why we would bother to employ people to police our car parks if there is no monetary gain. IT IS BECAUSE PEOPLE ABUSE THE SYSTEM TO SAVE A COUPLE OF QUID AND TO HELL WITH ANYONE ELSE. It comes down to a question of morals.

[TallMan100]

It is absolutely a question of morals. ECP stick to the letter of the rules rather than the spirit. Their victims are equally entitled to take the same legal approach. End of discussion.

[kiptower]

but morals do not allow your agent to [problem] people

 

you nor your agent has a legal right to demand money with threats of legal action

 

just remember legal advice is if such a matter goes to court the person can take counter action against the PPC AND THE LAND OWNER

 

and there could be a case for criminal action against the PPC and the LAND OWNER of "DEMANDING MONEY WITH MENACES"

[fairplayforall]

I have never seen one instance of them breaking the rules, however I am at the end of my tether with awful people breaking my rules and I reserve the right to refuse admission to my shop also if I wish to do so and have had to exercise that right also because some people are horrible and will twist things to suit themselves when they cannot do the right thing. I have needed a space in the past and been tempted to use a private car park to just pop into a shop, however when you are in business and understand the implications and problems caused you try to see the other mans point of view (some of these people then try to hurt themselves in the car park to make a claim). I am both a retailer and a shopper I can see both sides. By all means appeal if you are truly genuine, however short of having a heart attack so being late to pick up your car I dont see how all these people can be genuine.

[fairplayforall]

I can threaten legal action as can you to anyone I wish. The courts decide if it is just and we have to have faith in our legal system. I do

[Al27]

Unfortunately it's a black and white situation. I'm not taking sides, but the law says xyz, so it's not a case of morals, it's a case of what parliament has decided.

 

You're in a fairly powerless situation as Euro Car Parks have never ever taken anyone to small claims court (despite what they might tell you) and there's no way to force people to pay the charges you think they should pay.

 

Re. jobs - there's no obligation that somebody should pay the costs required to keep someone salaried or for supplies. Their actions have not caused a loss because they have allegedly entered into a contract with unenforceable terms.

 

You can sue somebody though if their actions HAVE caused tangible loss to your business though. If Joe Bloggs keeps blocking a space and driving away custom, you can take them to small claims. It HAS to realistic and provable though. If you sell hot tubs, you can't assume every customer will buy one and sue Joe for £1000.

 

Of course, you'd have to bring the claim yourself and it is nothing to do with Euro.

 

Civil law is designed not to allow citizens to punish others, but it is set up to recompense those who have been wronged by others. Which is why you need to understand it's not an emotive issue of morals, but hard cold facts.

 

I suggest you talk to a solicitor about your business and draw up some proper contracts for your land, rather than taking the lazy way out and working with scamsters. They're tricking you as an employer as much as members of the public.

[TallMan100]

I have never seen one instance of them breaking the rules, however I am at the end of my tether with awful people breaking my rules and I reserve the right to refuse admission to my shop also if I wish to do so and have had to exercise that right also because some people are horrible and will twist things to suit themselves when they cannot do the right thing. I have needed a space in the past and been tempted to use a private car park to just pop into a shop, however when you are in business and understand the implications and problems caused you try to see the other mans point of view (some of these people then try to hurt themselves in the car park to make a claim). I am both a retailer and a shopper I can see both sides. By all means appeal if you are truly genuine, however short of having a heart attack so being late to pick up your car I dont see how all these people can be genuine.

 

Oh for goodness sake. You can appeal 'til you are blue in the face. The parking companies DO NOT CARE. How can an appeals procedure possible be fair when the company acts as both prosecutor and judge.

[kiptower]

nor are these [problematic] genuine

 

APPLEAL your are really having a laugh now , NO SUCH THING AS A REAL APPEAL with the [problematic]

 

but their money making [problem] may shortly be ended , as the MOJ are about to come down on them

 

just look what they did to private clampers in scotland , they no longer exist

 

maybe the penny will drop with you , you are part of a [problem] which may well backfire on you

 

look up how MacDonalds and their PPC that was exposed on watchdog , PPC invoice have no more meaning or use than to make a paper plane out of , and that was shown live on watchdog

 

maybe you should take some time and research Hansard and look up speaches and proposal in the House of Lords about Jan this year "to curb the [problem] of PPC issues [problem] invoices on private land"

 

for some reason you are on a crusade on CAG to justify your agents actions , CAG is the wrong soap box for you sorry to say,

 

if you really feal strong about your problem take it up with your MP, however dont hold your breath waiting for help from him, as most MP get never ending mail from the public and the PPC [problem].

[MARTIN3030]

Thread closed due to length.

Further postings here;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?284978-Illegal-tickets-Continued-from-previous-thread%281-Viewing%29-nbsp