management charges on two apartments CCJ after CCJ **DEBTS WIPED OUT**

[FMZ]

Hi everyone, I hope I have the correct forum I need help with a debt relating to management charges on two apartments.

 

On the 24 February 2014 Northampton County Court served us with papers in respect of outstanding service charges.

 

A1111111 name of apartment one in the amount of £3752.01

 

A2222222 name of apartment two in the amount of £3812.03

 

We challenged the figures sought by the managing agents and their solicitors, advising the Court that we had never received (and still haven't) statements of accounts. We agreed we owed service charges but believed the figures due were much lower.

 

The County Court appeared to agree with our figures. They made a ruling in the case A22222 relating to apartment two. Judgement was ordered in favour of the claimant in the amount of £1531.27 on the 10 July 2014. We immediately paid that figure and the CCJ was removed from the register.

 

No ruling was ever made in relation to A111111 - apartment one. As with apartment two we strongly disputed the figures claimed by the management agents and their solicitors. The Court ended up closing the file as the solicitors for the claimants apparently didn't respond to their queries.

 

NRAM, our mortgage company, confirmed to us in writing that they had been advised a CCJ was registered against us in respect of apartment 1 in the amount of £1932.54. NRAM confirmed that they paid this figure to the claimants solicitors. We were very upset as the case was not heard never mind a ruling made. We believe the claimants solicitors sent NRAM a copy of the CCJ entered on apartment 222 in order to get the fund for apartment 1.

 

Now a year later, the management agents have again changed at the apartment block. They requested the 2015 management charge but allowed payments by instalment. We paid the first payment on both apartments in January. By return we received a letter from the new management agents stating that as we were in serious arrears on our service charge payments they had instructed solicitors to start court action. They now claim we owe circa £4500 on each apartment.

 

I wrote back to ask how they had commuted their figures. I advised them of the above and included confirmation from the court re the judgement as well as a copy of the letter from NRAM confirming payment. I had a very nice email back to say that they were not aware of the history and would investigate and revert. That was on Feb 9th.

 

We heard nothing since but on Thursday we received a letter from a solicitors firm stating that they had been advised to start legal action to recover the arrears due i.e. circa £4500 per apartment.

 

Following my long post my questions are 1) Can they sue us again over this debt when the court made a ruling and awarded a CCJ?

 

2) I think I need a solicitor? Does anyone have any idea how much this would cost?

 

I believe in paying my debts and have tried to but the previous management company wouldnt accept instalments, didn't provide any reports or accounts and were extremely difficult to deal with. We asked them to request payment from our mortgage company but they said they couldn't until a judgement was in force.

 

We bought these apartments when we were both working and had good jobs. I had to give up work due to having an autistic child, I left the UK and moved abroad. My husband still lives in the UK, lost his job and has since found another one but on a much reduced salary. We would sell if we could but both apartments are in negative equity.

 

Thank you for your help

[AndyOrch]

Thread moved to the appropriate forum.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[FMZ]

Sorry Andy,thank you

[AndyOrch]

No problem..... I appreciate that you are not renting but as for the service/management problem this will probably be the best forum to get a response.

[FMZ]

Thanks Andy, I really wasnt sure which thread to post it in and I need all the help I can get.

[citizenB]

I would have thought if a claim had already been issued and a judgment had been made, then they couldn't issue a 2nd claim on that issue.

[FMZ]

Thanks Citizen B. Thats what I thought although I wasnt sure. A CCJ was issued for apartment 2 so I am guessing that they cannot sue us again for the same debt. But I am not sure what happens to the debt under apartment one given no judgement was made by the court. I contacted the court to tell them about the letter to NRAM and they then replied to say they had closed the case due to lack of contact from the claimants solicitors.

 

So can a new management company (and new solicitors) just start over again?

[SabreSheep]

Apartment 1 can be reheard

 

Apartment 2 where ccj was issued I would imagine cannot be reheard after a judgment has been issued except where an offical appeal on a point of law is made. I would argue that a claim on apartment 2 is a perversion of process

[mariner51]

I would have thought a new claim could be popoursued if the orig CCJ had not been 'satisfied' in time. The amounts claimed this time are are higher, poss due to accrued interest, and OP has now revealed his subs, unrelated, cash-flow prgblems.

Without sight of all rel docs, either OP is being economical with the verite, or the new MCo has made an error, only the Judge can decide on evidence avail. Anyone can pursue an demonstrable outstanding debt for 6+ years

[FMZ]

Apartment 1 can be reheard

 

Apartment 2 where ccj was issued I would imagine cannot be reheard after a judgment has been issued except where an offical appeal on a point of law is made. I would argue that a claim on apartment 2 is a perversion of process

 

Thank you so much SabreSheep - I thought the same but I have little experience in this area.

 

I would have thought a new claim could be popoursued if the orig CCJ had not been 'satisfied' in time. The amounts claimed this time are are higher, poss due to accrued interest, and OP has now revealed his subs, unrelated, cash-flow prgblems.

Without sight of all rel docs, either OP is being economical with the verite, or the new MCo has made an error, only the Judge can decide on evidence avail. Anyone can pursue an demonstrable outstanding debt for 6+ years

 

Thanks for responding Mariner 51. I can assure you that I have been completely 100% honest -it would be pointless to ask for help and not give the facts

 

The reason for the increase in figures is, I think, the fact that they would/should have added 2015 management charges to the bill. But they do not appear to have taken into account either 1) the existing legal action having been taken or 2) the payments made. I do not know for sure having had no accounts.

 

Not sure what you mean about "Op has now revealed his subs, unrelated, cash -flow problems" - the management agents were aware of everything as was the Court last time around. I felt it was related as it was the reason we couldnt pay in a lump sum and offered to pay by instalments. We have struggled to keep the apartments rented and pay the mortgages leaving very little "income" from the apartments to pay management charges which increased from 1500 in 2012 (previous management company) to circa £1900 with no accounts or reasons for increase.

 

Finally, I posted on these boards in good faith. Last year was my first time having court papers served- that was a learning curve in itself. I have searched high and low for information on what happens when a new management company and new solicitors issues proceedings for a debt on which a CCJ was registered and paid.

 

I don't know how to upload the documents with the relevant identifiable details blanked out.

 

All I am trying to find out is a) Can you be sued for a debt twice when a CCJ was entered/registered and paid. - I am guessing the answer is no based on previous replies.

 

2) Do I need a solicitor - I guess the answer is yes as the management company/solicitors seem to be ignoring the rules. I do not have the legal know how to fight this. Google and these board are full of excellent information on how to fight an initial court case. There is little on what happens when someone new tries to bring a case on which the court ruled to court again.

 

Thank you to everyone who responded - I appreciate your time and efforts on my behalf . I will now go about finding a solicitor to fight this for me.

[SabreSheep]

I would imagine that if a debt has a ccj already the next stage for same debt would be enforcement not to try the debt again.

 

Abuse of process

[FMZ]

I would imagine that if a debt has a ccj already the next stage for same debt would be enforcement not to try the debt again.

 

Abuse of process

 

The CCJ was registered on 10 July 2014 and cleared in full shortly thereafter. I have the letter from the court showing a CCJ was entered but it was removed on payment within the 14 days. This is what I don't understand. How can the new solicitors threaten to go to Court on a debt the court has already ruled upon.

[Herilsamika]

The CCJ was registered on 10 July 2014 and cleared in full shortly thereafter. I have the letter from the court showing a CCJ was entered but it was removed on payment within the 14 days. This is what I don't understand. How can the new solicitors threaten to go to Court on a debt the court has already ruled upon.

 

A debt that has already been adjudicated cannot be retried. The old amount claimed was approx £3700 and you paid off £1500 of that amount.

 

You need to ascertain what the £4500 debt is for - could it be the new management fee of £1900 plus the balance of the old debt approx £1200?

 

I would write to the court that judgement was made already and give the case number.

[FMZ]

A debt that has already been adjudicated cannot be retried. The old amount claimed was approx £3700 and you paid off £1500 of that amount.

 

You need to ascertain what the £4500 debt is for - could it be the new management fee of £1900 plus the balance of the old debt approx £1200?

 

I would write to the court that judgement was made already and give the case number.

 

Thank you so much for replying. I have sent them a letter today asking for a full breakdown of figures. Thankfully I kept a copy of everything issued by the Court previously.

[FMZ]

It's been a long time but we finally got an answer on both accounts.

 

The solicitors involved prior to the new management agents made quite a few mistakes, the least of which appears to be what they tried to do to us.

 

All the "debts" they said we owed despite the CCJ being issued and paid, were wiped out.

The management agent finally accepted our proof of payment and the copies of all our correspondence.

 

Thank you to all those who helped us to get this issue sorted.

It just goes to show that just because you get solicitor letters and court letters, it doesn't mean you actually owe the money.