Off topic posts from "Getting them to Reveal their Vitals"

[alanalana]

Hello CB,

 

done

 

Consumer Credit Act Agreements

 

aa

[citizenB]

Hello CB,

 

done

 

Consumer Credit Act Agreements

 

aa

 

 

Thanks aa, very useful information.

[Richard Spud]

X20...could I just ask your background as I am intreagued you seem very knowledgable ?

 

While I appreciate the intrigue that x20’s posts might cause due to the extremely knowledgeable information intimated, it is precisely the type of enquiring statements as to the background of a poster which caused me to leave CAG on 24/06/07.

 

I have recently returned to CAG and while I do not intend to provide any advice I would like to be free to comment from my personal experience and knowledge base as I feel appropriate which I hope will help all CAGers.

 

I would commend x20 for intimating the knowledge expounded in his/her posts in this thread. I have nothing of consequence to add, save to say that acting for Defendants against Creditor Claimants I have personal experience of cases in the County Courts when I have raised the matter of original and copies of Regulated Agreements (under the CCA 1974) failing to be produced, not legible, incomplete etc. and on every occasion I have been successful in the Claim being either withdrawn and discontinued, struck out or denied by a DJ.

 

Regards – RS.

[andrew1]

You also had many admirers RS who were very respectful of your imparted knowledge - never forget that either !

[remus]

SOOOO GOOD TO SEE YOU BACK RICHARD, MISSED YOU!

AS ANDREW 1 (SARAH) HAS SAID YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EMPATHY MAKES CAG THE BEST PLACE TO BE

[shakespeare62]

Fear not - X20 lives !! u can pick up an awesome trail of advice from surfaceagent20 on the following CAG link which refers back to the above postings !!!! :-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159341-court-papers-received-what-7.html?highlight=n244

[mfpa]

If I produce a copy of an agreement which is fuzzed up and unreadable because it is an umpteen times regenerated copy and claim it to be a copy of the original, the court is likely to construe my statement as 'true' on the basis that it is a copy of the original (assuming it is of course and not a photocopy of a, I dunno, a bus ticket). It is far better before chucking allegations around to require the producer of the document to clarify what was used to generate the copy document he produced to you.

 

I like your style but the above raises a question in my mind: does it help the creditor's case or the consumer's if the court accepts an unreadable document as a copy of the original agreement? Presumably this depends on the degree of unreadability?

[tinkerbell20]

While I appreciate the intrigue that x20’s posts might cause due to the extremely knowledgeable information intimated, it is precisely the type of enquiring statements as to the background of a poster which caused me to leave CAG on 24/06/07.

 

I have recently returned to CAG and while I do not intend to provide any advice I would like to be free to comment from my personal experience and knowledge base as I feel appropriate which I hope will help all CAGers.

 

I would commend x20 for intimating the knowledge expounded in his/her posts in this thread. I have nothing of consequence to add, save to say that acting for Defendants against Creditor Claimants I have personal experience of cases in the County Courts when I have raised the matter of original and copies of Regulated Agreements (under the CCA 1974) failing to be produced, not legible, incomplete etc. and on every occasion I have been successful in the Claim being either withdrawn and discontinued, struck out or denied by a DJ.

 

Regards – RS.

welcome back!!!:)

[ian1969uk]

The original post states that documents mentioned in a claim should be attached to the claim form. Please remember that this is not the case if the claim is filed using Money Claim Online.

[surfaceagentx20]

PV,

A Defendant faced with a Claimant who declines to deal with his CPR 31.14 obligations promptly (ie within 7 days of the request) may file an application with the court in Form N244 for an appropriate order.

 

The following text is fom a post I made in wakeywakey's thread entitled: 'Marlins/Arrow Global have no CCA-Now what?' and deals with the completion of the N244 for an appropriate order folowing a Claimant's failure to comply with a CPR 31.14 request.

 

In box [3] of the N244 write:

 

'An order that unless within 14 days of the making of an order upon this application the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on (date) pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [1] the agreement [2] the default notice and [3] the assignment, the claim shall stand struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court with the costs of this case to be paid by the Claimant to the Defendant to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

The application is made because of the Claimant's refusal to comply with the Defendant's CPR 31.14 request and the documents are required owing to [here add any special feature or requirement of the case] and to enable the proper preparation of a Defence.'

 

In Box 4 write: 'Yes'

In Box 5 write: 'Without a hearing'

Ignore Box 6

In Box 7 write: 'None'

In Box 8 write: 'District Judge'

In Box 9 write: 'Claimant'

In Box 10 tick the box marked 'the evidence set out in the box below' and beneath it write:

 

'On (date), following service of the Claim Form in this case, I wrote to the Claimant requesting inspection of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim pursuant to CPR 31.14. A copy of my letter of request is attached to this application notice marked 'A'.

 

The following is the text taken from my wakeywakey post but hopefully will assist with a gist of the sort of thing to say:

 

[The Claimant replied by letter dated (date) rejecting my request on the ground it had no obligation to comply. A copy of this reply is attached to this application notice marked 'B'.

 

The agreement relied upon by the Claimant is now very old. The documents sought by my request are essential for the proper preparation of my defence and the determination of the claim and CPR 31.14 afford me a right to inspect those documents.']

 

Sign the statement, attach the copies and complete the remainder of the N244 in the usual way applicable to your case.

 

On a separate piece of paper to be attached to your application notice, write this:

 

Claim No:

Draft Order

 

1 Unless by 4:00pm on (date) the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on (date) pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [here list the documents sought in the CPR 31.14 request for example, [1] the agreement [2] the default notice and [3] the assignment,]

the claim shall stand struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court, and

[ii] the Claimant shall pay the Defendant his/her costs of this case to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

2 In the event that the Claimant shall comply with this order,

the Defendant shall file and serve a Defence by 4:00pm on (date) and

[ii] the Claimant shall pay the Defendant his/her costs of this application [in any event] [assessed in the sum of £130.00]

 

The fee payable to the court on filing this application is presently £75.00.

 

Hope this helps.

 

x20

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Thing is a have sent Marty Clarke a CPR 18 request and he has ignored it.

I have submitted my defence anyway and awaiting them to acknoweledge defence.

 

Is it worth doing a CPR 31 request now.

 

HAK

[miss muppet]

Thanks SAX20 for your helpful and informative reply:)

[Harry May]

Thanks X20

 

I will try and digest but I need my beauty sleep now:)

[Ruud]

Hi x20,

 

I've been following this excellent thread with great interest as I've just been served a court summons. I don't want to go into detail here as it is already laid out in a seperate thread entitled "Court summons received please help"

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/164872-court-summons-received-please.html

 

42man kindly posted your 31.14 letter for me to use with one minor difference he changed the paragraph

 

"You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties"

to

"Your client should ensure compliance with its CPR 31 duties"

 

Is this important? and if so should I be changing the whole letter to refer to "Your Claimant"I just want to be sure I get it exactly right as I don't know much about this sort of thing and don't know if it matters? I'm hoping to post it this afternoon?

Thanks and once again - great thread

 

PS The Claimant is Northern Rock but Wallers are their Solicitors and the CPR 31.14 is going to Wallers

[surfaceagentx20]

Ruud,

42 Man made an appropriate amendment to the letter. In your case the CPR 31.14 letter will be addressed to the Claimant's solicitor Wallers and hence the disclosure obligations are obligations owed not by Wallers but by thier client.

 

x20

[Ruud]

Thanks, I didn't want them to reject it on a technicality

[embarrassed_fool]

It seems that the DCA are reading this thread and recreating it for their own benefit.

 

The basic reply is they dont have to supply anything etc, and send a print out of this thread, with the usual 'is this your letter' remarks.

 

I guess they love CAG too.

[Tartan Barty]

If I have a loan account still with the original creditor that is giving me endless sh*t, who have been CCA' d and supplied the front page of the agreement which has the prescribed terms on (although not sure the APR is right), but have also admitted in notes supplied by S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) that they don't have T&C's from when it was taken out (i.e. they must have this agreement digitally stored), how can 31.14 help when they default me and then the DCA pondlife take me to court??

 

Just trying to get my head round this for the future ;-)

(amazing work surfaceagent!)

[Tartan Barty]

Much obliged that makes it clear now

[StayingCalm]

Hi x20

 

I would be grateful for some guidance, with respect to this excellent thread, which I hope will be of help to others also.

 

I have used the CPR 31.14 request letter detailed in this thread in response to a N1 claim from Northampton CCBC, for a Credit Card debt assigned absolutely to a DCA. (The OC had previously responded to an s78 request, and also sent a non-compliant DN; however I do not believe the DCA had these documents when they commenced proceedings). Solicitors have replied saying that they are not obliged to provide the information requested, and that the POC is sufficiently detailed.

 

I now intend to file an application using N244 along the lines suggested in post 59 of this thread.

 

 

 

 

PV,

A Defendant faced with a Claimant who declines to deal with his CPR 31.14 obligations promptly (ie within 7 days of the request) may file an application with the court in Form N244 for an appropriate order.

 

The following text is fom a post I made in wakeywakey's thread entitled: 'Marlins/Arrow Global have no CCA-Now what?' and deals with the completion of the N244 for an appropriate order folowing a Claimant's failure to comply with a CPR 31.14 request.

 

In box [3] of the N244 write:

 

'An order that unless within 14 days of the making of an order upon this application the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on (date) pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [1] the agreement [2] the default notice and [3] the assignment, the claim shall stand struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court with the costs of this case to be paid by the Claimant to the Defendant to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

The application is made because of the Claimant's refusal to comply with the Defendant's CPR 31.14 request and the documents are required owing to [here add any special feature or requirement of the case] and to enable the proper preparation of a Defence.'

 

In Box 4 write: 'Yes'

In Box 5 write: 'Without a hearing'

Ignore Box 6

In Box 7 write: 'None'

In Box 8 write: 'District Judge'

In Box 9 write: 'Claimant'

In Box 10 tick the box marked 'the evidence set out in the box below' and beneath it write:

 

'On (date), following service of the Claim Form in this case, I wrote to the Claimant requesting inspection of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim pursuant to CPR 31.14. A copy of my letter of request is attached to this application notice marked 'A'.

 

The following is the text taken from my wakeywakey post but hopefully will assist with a gist of the sort of thing to say:

 

[The Claimant replied by letter dated (date) rejecting my request on the ground it had no obligation to comply. A copy of this reply is attached to this application notice marked 'B'.

 

The agreement relied upon by the Claimant is now very old. The documents sought by my request are essential for the proper preparation of my defence and the determination of the claim and CPR 31.14 afford me a right to inspect those documents.']

 

Sign the statement, attach the copies and complete the remainder of the N244 in the usual way applicable to your case.

 

On a separate piece of paper to be attached to your application notice, write this:

 

Claim No:

Draft Order

 

1 Unless by 4:00pm on (date) the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on (date) pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [here list the documents sought in the CPR 31.14 request for example, [1] the agreement [2] the default notice and [3] the assignment,]

the claim shall stand struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court, and

[ii] the Claimant shall pay the Defendant his/her costs of this case to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

2 In the event that the Claimant shall comply with this order,

the Defendant shall file and serve a Defence by 4:00pm on (date) and

[ii] the Claimant shall pay the Defendant his/her costs of this application [in any event] [assessed in the sum of £130.00]

 

The fee payable to the court on filing this application is presently £75.00.

 

Hope this helps.

 

x20

 

 

 

 

 

After filing the N244 do I still have to complete a Defence?

 

Will Northampton deal with the application, or will it be transferred to my local court?

 

Does the £130 costs in s2 (ii) of the Draft Order include the £75 fee?

 

If the Claimant should not comply and the claim is struck out, would they be able to restore the claim at a latter date, or bring new proceedings?

 

Again, if struck out, could they sell the account to a new DCA, or return it to the OC, and would they then be able to start new proceedings?

 

 

Regards

sc

[chlorochrome]

I sure do.

 

x20

 

Okay. I shall. Thank you for taking the time to help me.

[ScabHunter]

x20,

 

Just a quick question, if I may.

 

You state that this CPR 31.14 request is only applicable to the documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim. You also state that CPR 18 requests are often refused for not being reasonable and proportionate, and that when the claim is for less than £5,000, the Claimant refers to CPR 27.2(f), saying that Part 18 does not apply.

 

In your letter for the CPR 31.14 request, you include a paragraph saying -

 

[Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise]

 

My question is this -

 

Assuming we were dealing with an overdraft where most or even all of the amount was made up of unlawful charges. In this case, the "agreement" is less relevant than statements which prove the level of unlawful charges. These statements are not mentioned in the Particulars of Claim.

 

Would it not be possible to include your above paragraph in a CPR Part 18 request, to prevent them using CPR 27(2) as an excuse not to comply? The case would be at the same early stage, not yet allocated to track.

 

Claims that the request is not reasonable and not proportionate would surely not be reasonable as the statements are the very evidence which the defendant needs to have in order to defend the claim. Or, at least PART of the evidence, depending on other factors.

 

This is not a situation that I have to face, but it may be facing someone else shortly, so any advice you could give would be appreciated.

 

SH

[StayingCalm]

Bump (re post 101)

 

 

Hi x20

I would be grateful for some guidance, with respect to this excellent thread, which I hope will be of help to others also.

 

I have used the CPR 31.14 request letter detailed in this thread in response to a N1 claim from Northampton CCBC, for a Credit Card debt assigned absolutely to a DCA. (The OC had previously responded to an s78 request, and also sent a non-compliant DN; however I do not believe the DCA had these documents when they commenced proceedings). Solicitors have replied saying that they are not obliged to provide the information requested, and that the POC is sufficiently detailed.

 

I now intend to file an application using N244 along the lines suggested in post 59 of this thread.

 

 

 

In wakeywakey’s thread x20 stated:

 

 

You may either:

 

[1] put in the Defence along the lines I drafted and which appears at post no13, or

[2] put in an application notice in Form N244

 

If you opt for option [2],

 

in box [3] of the N24 write:

 

'An order that unless within 14 days of the making of an order upon this application the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on (date) pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [1] the agreement [2] the default notice and [3] the assignment, the claim shall stand struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court with the costs of this case to be paid by the Claimant to the Defendant to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

The application is made because of the Claimant's refusal to comply with the Defendant's CPR 31.14 request and the documents are required owing to the age of the case and to enable the proper preparation of a Defence.'

 

In Box 4 write: 'Yes'

In Box 5 write: 'Without a hearing'

Ignore Box 6

In Box 7 write: 'None'

In Box 8 write: 'District Judge'

In Box 9 write: 'Claimant'

 

In Box 10 tick the box marked 'the evidence set out in the box below' and beneath it write:

 

'On (date), following service of the Claim Form in this case, I wrote to the Claimant requesting inspection of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim pursuant to CPR 31.14. A copy of my letter of request is attached to this application notice marked 'A'.

 

The Claimant replied by letter dated (date) rejecting my request on the ground it had no obligation to comply. A copy of this reply is attached to this application notice marked 'B'.

 

The agreement relied upon by the Claimant is now very old. The documents sought by my request are essential for the proper preparation of my defence and the determination of the claim and CPR 31.14 afford me a right to inspect those documents.'

 

Sign the statement, attach the copies and complete the remainder of the N244 in the usual way applicable to your case.

 

On a separate piece of paper to be attached to your application notice, write this:

 

Claim No:

 

Draft Order

 

1 Unless by 4:00pm on (date) the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on (date) pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [1] the agreement [2] the default notice and [3] the assignment,

 

the claim shall stand struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court, and

[ii] the Claimant shall pay the Defendant his/her costs of this case to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

2 In the event that the Claimant shall comply with this order,

the Defendant shall file and serve a Defence by 4:00pm on (date) and

[ii] the Claimant shall pay the Defendant his/her costs of this application [in any event] [assessed in the sum of £130.00]

 

x20

 

 

 

 

After filing the N244 do I still have to complete a Defence?

 

Will Northampton deal with the application, or will it be transferred to my local court?

 

Does the £130 costs in s2 (ii) of the Draft Order include the £75 fee?

 

If the Claimant should not comply and the claim is struck out, would they be able to restore the claim at a latter date, or bring new proceedings?

 

Again, if struck out, could they sell the account to a new DCA, or return it to the OC, and would they then be able to start new proceedings?

 

 

Regards

sc

 

 

 

My defence for this claim needs to be in by this Friday, and I intend to send the above application tomorrow.

 

Wakeywakey did not decide to use the application in the end, and I have been searching other threads for information, but I am not sure if anyone has used this yet.

 

From wakey’s thread it appears either put in an N244 or a Defence, but I do not want to miss filing a Defence if this is still required.

 

I was going to start my own thread for this claim soon anyway, but if you require more information now I will start a new thread this evening and post all details.

 

 

 

Many thanks for all help and advice.

Regards

sc

[surfaceagentx20]

StayingCalm,

 

Q1

I have amended the text of box 3 of the N244 in order to make it clear that an extension of time for serivce of the Defnece is sought. The text in box 3 would read:

 

'An order extending time for service of the Defence and directing that unless within 14 days of the making of an order upon this application the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on (date) pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim, namely [1] the agreement [2] the default notice and [3] the assignment, the claim shall stand struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty to enter judgment against the Claimant without further order of the court with the costs of this case to be paid by the Claimant to the Defendant to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975.

 

The application is made because of the Claimant's refusal to comply with the Defendant's CPR 31.14 request and the documents are required owing to the age of the case and to enable the proper preparation of a Defence.'

 

Q2

I would expect it to be transfered to your local court.

 

Q3

I estimated costs at £130.00 to include the cour fee of £75.00. you are not obliged to stick with £130.00 and may suggest a differnet figure.

 

Q4

The Claimant whose claim is struck out for non-compliance may apply to the court for relief from the sanction. It will be a pre-requisite of any application that there is compliance with the order and the claimant will have to satsify the court that it should be allowed back into the case on a consideration of the principles set out under CPR 3.9.

 

Q5

Any baggage or black marks connected to the account, including such things linked to the collection of the account, pass with it and would be avialble for you to use in Defene. Thus if the claim was struck out and the Claimant passed the account on to another collector who brought proceedings, you could meet any claim brought by that collector by saying in your Defence that proceedings on the account had been brought and struck out by order of the court.

 

x20

[StayingCalm]

Hi x20

 

Thanks as always for your excellent advice. I will get that off to Northampton tomorrow by S. Delivery.

 

sc