Are the DWP committing Fraud ?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Now from what I can find, Giros continued to be issued to claimants of no fixed abode who collected their payments direct from the JC+ a certain time of day. Or emergency payments being made, but I guess that would be a one off payment not 3.

 

I'm not sure if this continues now.

 

I wonder if the DWP have records as to where the Giros were cashed, I believe it had to be a designated post office.

 

I would expect a DWP presenting officer to have proof of the encashment of the Giro and the designated office for payment, without that I would suggest that there is no proof as to the claimant having personally received any such payments.

[Jamess23]

Now from what I can find, Giros continued to be issued to claimants of no fixed abode who collected their payments direct from the JC+ a certain time of day. Or emergency payments being made, but I guess that would be a one off payment not 3.

 

I'm not sure if this continues now.

 

I wonder if the DWP have records as to where the Giros were cashed, I believe it had to be a designated post office.

 

I would expect a DWP presenting officer to have proof of the encashment of the Giro and the designated office for payment, without that I would suggest that there is no proof as to the claimant having personally received any such payments.

 

Well I certainly was not 'of no fixed abode' and can prove it. I have requested copies of/ details the giro's but so far I have received nothing. It has been suggested that I not ask yet for SAR info as when they get my appeal letter they will do that anyway. I am certain that no giro's exist but you begin to doubt whether the DWP will acquiesce and admit the error or just keep reiterating (rather like your opinion regarding debts that don't exist) that the overpayment is genuine. However we shall see.

[Jamess23]

And finally....I must say as a man who has worked hard from the age of 16 ( after being a young carer from the age of 8 and saving this country thousands) Then for over 35 years after paying thousands in tax and NI,to find myself being treated like this is nothing short of criminal. The ingratitude of people working in the DWP is both humiliating and unworthy of of our support and co-operation and sadly as I get closer to my seventh decade I find myself despising the country I have worked so hard for and grew up in. But hey:whoo: tomorrow's another day and you can't keep a good man down. So have fun and don't let the ba****ds grind you down. Up the revolution:-)

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I would agree but, 'ingratitude of staff working for the DWP' is harsh and uncalled for, these people are doing their jobs, I don't believe for one minute there is any personal grudge or in gratitude at all.

[osdset]

In fairness DWP letters can be vague. The well used 'due to a recent change in your circumstances' letter can leave claimants scratching their heads wondering just what change occurred and when.

 

A bit more transparency and a full explanation of reasons for decisions that people can understand would not go amiss.

[Lea_HTH]

The most obvious thing has been missed.

 

There is the distinct possibility that there was a claim for benefits during the period of time specified: by someone other than the OP.

 

So the DWP may not have made a mistake according to their records - the mistake may be as to the identity of the claimant, who may or may not have made a fradulent claim

[tokenfield]

In my case the DWP knew my address too. But for some obscure reason they sent the letter to an address that I last lived at 2 years prior!

 

By the time I realised that it had been sent and to the wrong address, I put in an appeal. This appeal was thrown out as the DWP had carried out their duty to send it to the 'last known' address which unfortunately was the wrong one. I was only a matter of weeks outside the 4 week limit but the Tribunal ruled that the DWP were right - just one of those things I was told.

[tokenfield]

I would agree but, 'ingratitude of staff working for the DWP' is harsh and uncalled for, these people are doing their jobs, I don't believe for one minute there is any personal grudge or in gratitude at all.

 

All government departments have this problem. Of course grudges are held. It may be just as simple as making life a little bit harder for some and not others. I did it! There were some members of the public that deserved 'special attention'. I was lenient with those that seemed honest and made life a lot more difficult for those that tried it on with me. I used to 'help' some but make it difficult for others.

Of course I had my pet 'customers' - the ones that I would put through the mill at regular intervals.

 

I doubt any civil servant if they were honest enough would say that they didn't go the extra mile for some and make it difficult for others.

 

The same happens with every level of authority - see where you would get if you were to make life difficult for a particular civil servant.

[caro]

I suspect that the more open you are, the more likely they are to see that you have nothing to hide and any possible overpayment was due to an honest mistake.

 

The more you act as if you have something to hide and avoid cooperating, the deeper they'll want to dig and try and find something.

[Jamess23]

All government departments have this problem. Of course grudges are held. It may be just as simple as making life a little bit harder for some and not others. I did it! There were some members of the public that deserved 'special attention'. I was lenient with those that seemed honest and made life a lot more difficult for those that tried it on with me. I used to 'help' some but make it difficult for others.

Of course I had my pet 'customers' - the ones that I would put through the mill at regular intervals.

 

I doubt any civil servant if they were honest enough would say that they didn't go the extra mile for some and make it difficult for others.

 

 

The same happens with every level of authority - see where you would get if you were to make life difficult for a particular civil servant.

 

Hi there,

 

Thank you so much for being honest. Sometimes you do feel like you are going mad or being paranoid but now I can feel a little more human again. One of the reasons I said they were ungrateful is because I have been so friendly and approachable with them. Gone that extra mile to please. Having to answer questions from a panel of doctors and social workers at the age of 14-16 on the health of your mother and your answers being the difference between her coming home or staying in hospital for more 'treatment' makes you very good at co-operating with authority figures. Not that I did not want to co-operate I did. So I feel I have been kicked in the teeth by people I thought of as friends. It is very hard and damaging psychologically to accept that and very irresponsible of whoever has done this. When you know that you are innocent and all your 'friends' are doing is blaming you it is horrible. At these times I always think of Rudyard Kipling's 'IF' and try to keep my head but I feel angry with them and this country for making my life difficult when all I want to do is help. I recently had to cancel my £2.00 monthly donation to the NSPCC and RSPB because this has made my finances so difficult. This is why before any decision is made they should at least confide in the person who is affected. I am so disappointed with them.

 

But thank you again for being honest I very much appreciate that.

[osdset]

If I were in a position of authority at the civil service and one of my subordinates was found to be less than 100% impartial with a member of the public, their working life would become intolerable very, very quickly.

Abuse of position is despicable

[antone]

If I were in a position of authority at the civil service and one of my subordinates was found to be less than 100% impartial with a member of the public, their working life would become intolerable very, very quickly.

Abuse of position is despicable

 

And indeed, most DWP supervisors would agree with you.

[antone]

All government departments have this problem. Of course grudges are held. It may be just as simple as making life a little bit harder for some and not others. I did it! There were some members of the public that deserved 'special attention'. I was lenient with those that seemed honest and made life a lot more difficult for those that tried it on with me. I used to 'help' some but make it difficult for others.

Of course I had my pet 'customers' - the ones that I would put through the mill at regular intervals.

 

I doubt any civil servant if they were honest enough would say that they didn't go the extra mile for some and make it difficult for others.

 

The same happens with every level of authority - see where you would get if you were to make life difficult for a particular civil servant.

 

Oh FFS! There are people you like and people you don't like - DWP staff are people, not robots. I do agree that there are folks who took things personally. They were held in contempt by their colleagues because, well, it's just a freakin' job. For most of us AOs, it barely paid the rent.

 

But there's a difference, though, isn't there? I mean, it's one thing to give bad service because you don't like someone, quite another to dislike someone so much that you'd fabricate debts and risk prison. OP's debt has not been fabricated. It is a cock-up.

[Jamess23]

If I were in a position of authority at the civil service and one of my subordinates was found to be less than 100% impartial with a member of the public, their working life would become intolerable very, very quickly.

Abuse of position is despicable

 

Woah! I did open up last night and I hadn't been drinking! Must have been tired and emotional.

 

Not being religious I don't believe in 'an eye for and eye' - as many have said before - that way we would end up with a world full of blind people. We shouldn't lower ourselves to their level. Cock up or not Antone this should not have been allowed to get this far. Customer care training (maybe equality and diversity having taught that myself in an earlier life) and a system where these 'errors' are picked up before they cause financial and psychological harm would be the common sense approach. People are human Antone yes, including those like me who find themselves suddenly a little older and on the scrapheap a couple of years earlier than we would like. I have paid my dues to society in both time and money. I am a fully paid up member of society and have a fully paid up state pension. A little respect from those whose job I have partly paid for would not go amiss.

[antone]

I agree it should not have happened - my point is only that it is not likely that this situation is a result of intentional malice, nor of DWP policy. We can all sit here and say "cock ups are bad", and yes they are. But they do happen, and we all know this.

 

As to the staff, well, the DWP employs about 100,000 people. Some are great, some get the job done and not much more, and some are idiots - something that's true of pretty much every institution of that size. In case you're wondering why I'm so precious about this when I don't even work there any more, here's why:

 

We have had many DWP staffers drop by and help. They offer valuable advice, and they do this off the clock - they don't get paid for showing up here. But they do it anyway because they're nice people. Trouble is, so many of them give up and we lose their expertise. They give up because of the constant abuse and nastiness - they get that all day at work, why would they volunteer for it in their free time? And every time one of them leaves, this forum becomes a poorer place.

[Jamess23]

Yes it's sods law isn't it? The guys like me who are on your side are the ones that get punished. The moody ar*****es you encounter get away with it because they don't care. I'm sure there are many of your colleagues who don't deserve to get the hassle they do. I have said those very words when appealing to the good nature of DM & the JC - I do not deserve this! It feels so much worse when you are being as accomadating as you can and you still get clobbered. It is soul destroying but I will carry on doing my best and it will not changed my easy going and friendly nature because that is how I am and that is why supervisors and good DWP employees should be vigilant and rather than help make peoples lives a misery. Challenge the ones who don't do enough rather than go for the innocents like me. One thing that does stand out and could be improved immediately is the willingness to help. Nobody said to me - Don't worry it does seem like there is a problem just send a letter to......with your reasons why you think you are not liable and we will look into it. All I got was - well there is a note on file...(so you must be liable) It wasn't until my MP got involved that I got a reasonable answer. But hey we're going over old ground now. I am hoping that common sense prevails and this thing will be overturned shortly. I can see from your answers that most people are up against a powerful institution and the answers are full of jeopardy. I don't envy you at all.

[antone]

Yeah well, I'd be surprised if anyone envied DWP employees. They are paid not very much to take abuse all day, and no staffer you'll ever speak to under normal circumstances has the authority to change anything. I think it's a Yes Minister quote - the Civil Service has the brakes of a Rolls-Royce and the engine of a lawn mower. Lots of people can stop something happening, but hardly anyone can make something happen.

 

So what do you do? Well, I tried to be kind, because I've been on benefits myself and I know how awful it is. If something seemed manifestly unjust, I'd speak to the bosses about it. Now, I ain't telling you that you shouldn't be upset about a non-existent debt - you should be upset, and take all possible steps to get the issue resolved. All I'm saying is, I guess, it's not personal and it's not conspiratorial. And if you take it that way, your life will be harder for no good reason.

[Jamess23]

Yeah well, I'd be surprised if anyone envied DWP employees. They are paid not very much to take abuse all day, and no staffer you'll ever speak to under normal circumstances has the authority to change anything. I think it's a Yes Minister quote - the Civil Service has the brakes of a Rolls-Royce and the engine of a lawn mower. Lots of people can stop something happening, but hardly anyone can make something happen.

 

So what do you do? Well, I tried to be kind, because I've been on benefits myself and I know how awful it is. If something seemed manifestly unjust, I'd speak to the bosses about it. Now, I ain't telling you that you shouldn't be upset about a non-existent debt - you should be upset, and take all possible steps to get the issue resolved. All I'm saying is, I guess, it's not personal and it's not conspiratorial. And if you take it that way, your life will be harder for no good reason.

 

I sent my appeal letter last week explaining that I wasn't signing on, did no jobs and did not even live in the area during the period concerned and my MP's assistant emailed a copy to DM at Telford to make sure they receive the info. These powerful life affecting frustrations can push you to the edge and then you either step back and philosophise or you step over. I ain't gonna step over no edge, nothing or nobody is worth that so my life may be harder because of this but my soul and my freedom is still mine and nobody is gonna take that away from me. Thanks for the chat. I would donate to this site but finances are tight and the NSPCC & RSPB will be the first back on my list when all this is sorted. I will keep you up to date on what happens though

[Jamess23]

I sent my appeal letter last week explaining that I wasn't signing on, did no jobs and did not even live in the area during the period concerned and my MP's assistant emailed a copy to DM at Telford to make sure they receive the info. These powerful life affecting frustrations can push you to the edge and then you either step back and philosophise or you step over. I ain't gonna step over no edge, nothing or nobody is worth that so my life may be harder because of this but my soul and my freedom is still mine and nobody is gonna take that away from me. Thanks for the chat. I would donate to this site but finances are tight and the NSPCC & RSPB will be the first back on my list when all this is sorted. I will keep you up to date on what happens though

 

Well common sense has prevailed. The debt management team on viewing my appeal have decided to cancel the debt and pay back any monies already taken. :whoo: My concern is the amount of tax payers money that has been wasted on something that should not have got so far and should not have taken so long to rectify. It must have cost more than the original erroneous debt to resolve. The JC manager had the right idea. 'This is obviously a mistake I 'll get it sorted out for you by tomorrow' That man is a credit to the DWP and I hope he is rewarded for his common sense and down to earth attitude. I was advised by MP's assistant that I could complain at the length of time it has taken but as (miraculously) I haven't lost any money I will leave it up to DM and the DWP to see if they can't improve the system. My MP is going to mention the wider points of this and I have given the DWP enough suggestions for investigation, so I think I will step back now, my work is done.

[bedofweeds]

Hi Antone,

 

I have been appearing for appellants and have seen cases blown out in minutes I have a file I can hardly lift on DWP debts well over 25 years old that it has been decided are collectable.

 

I know, I have one dating back to August 1987. It started at just under £12,000 and so far they have managed to get it down to just over £3000 with payments from various benefits. I don't deny I owe it, it was a fraud case that went to Crown Court in 1987 but it has been the best interest free loan that I have ever had! They seem to have forgotten me for the past 4 years so I will have to wait to see if they still want the outstanding balance.

[Springboard]

Hello Caro,

Amendments to the Welfare Reform Act have greatly changed the pursuit of OS DWP debt, I have a reference to the exact amendment in my office, but no in till Tuesday.

 

I appeared for an appellant on a DWP debt of some £15,000 at a Tribunal Hearing and lost spectacularly on SB due to the 2012 amendment.

 

I can seek further advice from 'on high' after the BH.

 

There has not been any limitation on the ability to deduct payments from existing benefit awards for years. I know of 25+ year old debts being collected from current benefits.

 

I will find the document and post up the references asap.

 

Hello any update on the question of SB and the 2012 amendment please?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Sorry for the delay I've haven't caught up with all my mail having been away for a while.